Opportunities Lost

[saleem]

I just recently picked up a copy of Thor for the Nintendo Wii and I do have to say that the game so far is the closest thing I have played to TH in a looong time. It shares a few similar mechanics to TH, for instance you have equipable runes (granted no where near as complex or satisfying as the TH version), a limited form of juggling, a lightning strike which is very similar to ruiners and last but not least the big bosses are taken out just like mounting trolls.

What really struck me though was the fact that I could play without having to even use the attack button for most part. Attacks were also generated by swinging the wii remote side to side or up and down. I cant help but think what TH could have been like on the Wii, did SK do itself a disservice by ignoring Nintendo all these years?

SK if you guys are still in business and can get the rights to do more TH please consider the Wii or Wii U.

[Guirec730]

When I spoke to Denis a couple of years ago during the anniversary event he expressed a great disinterest in motion gaming as a whole, but I wonder how he feels about the Wii U controller?

The opportunites for Eternal Darkness are obvious.

As for Thor, I couldn't handle more than about 15 minutes.

[saleem]

Im not sure how Thor plays on the Xbox or PS since I dont have that version but the wii version is pretty cool - well for me at least. I found that the motion controls were not gimicky at all but rather intuitive. I swing left to right and so does thor, I flick upwards and he's juggling frost giants, I shake the nunchuk while holding C and I throw my hammer. Sure alot of the gestures are in combination with button presses but that doesnt take anything away from the game. In fact I would go so far as to say that the controls were more gesture based that real 1:1 motion based which only lent to the immersion, that and the motion part as only used for initiating attacks ( ie with waggles, shakes and flicks) not for aiming. I'll be the first to admit though that the cam control in that game sucks royally lol, TH's was heaps better.

I think its rather ironic that you point that out Guirec, the controls on TH were far from conventional - so much so that it was probably the fact that alot of the bad press was a result of players not knowing what to do since there really wasnt much in they way of a how to play guide. I my self had to trawl the internet to figure them out. One would think that Denis would have been more open to other non conventional control schemes, especially those that would have provided him with an even more intuitive system. Its a shame that a lot of devs discount motion controls, done properly (as gesture based instead of true motion based) they can be very fun.

One thing I noticed is that a lot of melee combat games on the Wii went for the more accurate motion tracking layouts, Red Steel 2 is probably the best of these but at the end of the day that control system is still too complex and breaks the flow since when you swing and dont do it correctly nothing happens. Gesture based games however tend to be less demanding on the player allowing them to actually sink into the game, IMHO there arent enough games that use this scheme which is a darn shame. With gesture controls you can afford to have a cruder range of motions since your not relying 100% on how you flail about. Controls can be contextually defined via button combinations as well, allowing for players to just play and not get frustrated that attacks arent kicking in.

Seeing as ME 1 (originally an xbox exclusive) is now getting re-released as multi platform would it be possible to get TH going the same route? Considering that SK are currently hurting from their recent legal problems it would make more sense for them to rehash and polish up an older game for rerelease then to start from scratch all over again. Heck I'd buy a Wii U instantly if TH was on it and let me use the wiimote to swing baldurs hammer/sword etc, apparently the Wii U can run the Unreal engine on which TH's is loosely based - hint hint.

If I could pass a message on to Denis it would be this - get over your hangups about motion control, a game like TH would have benefited immensely from it. I know that with the Wii it wasnt really possible since it didnt support your game engine but the opportunity presents itself now with the Wii U and PS Move. My wife and kids point out that I have this childish grin of satisfaction plastered all over my face walking away from a game like thor (which pales in comparison to TH mind you). Its that kind of reaction that you as a game designer should be aiming for. Even if you cant rerelease TH, use its name or reuse the same engine anymore due to the legal issues, do something small in that vein. Get it out via the downloadable services like PSN or whatever the Wii U version is and reestablish your self in the market. I'd hate to see SK dissapear but only you can avoid that from happening. I think everyone here me included would buy a 10 of 15 dollar arcade game that played mechanically like TH on the xbox or used the motion systems on the PS or Wii U just out of support for SK. Cmon Denis! Make this happen!

[Guirec730]

Well, if I may continue to speak for him, 2 years ago his hangup on moation control was that it took the player out of the experience and made you feel like it's just a "game" and not an experience. I'm paraphrasing, but he may have changed his mind after this long.

Try Thor on DS, it's actually a quite respectable 2D beat 'em up from WayForward (Double Dragon Neon, Bloodrayne Betrayal, Aliens Infestation).

[saleem]

Thats very interesting to know Guirec, and it does (for me anyway) cast Denis in a new light. I have never met him but I am starting to get the impression that he is a complex fellow.

I agree with that when it comes to 1:1 motion tracking, games like Red Steel 2 although fun require you to be aware of your motions. There is not much room for error and eventually becomes more of the focus then the game or as Denis put it the experience. Light wand games as well like ghostbusters or metroid corruption also possess the same issue since your so focused on trying to move the targeting icon properly that you loose sight of why your playing. I have a pretty extensive library on my Wii (even larger then my xbox one) and I got to say that the best ones are those that eschew 1:1 tracking in favour of simpler gesture mapping.

Games like Mario, Spiderman: Friend or Foe, Thor and the Mario/Sonic Olympics all use the simpler gesture control system in combination with button commands. When playing those games I didnt have to worry about accurate movements and was able to fully immerse myself in the game. In these games a flick, sideways swing, shake or waggle becomes the equivalent of a button push. I think one of the reasons that a lot of devs balked at motion controls was that they kept imagining 1:1 mapping which is of course problematic. Aiming a wand at a TV screen is not as easy as it sounds.

I would argue that gesture systems provide even more immersion then 1:1 tracking, of course my data is based on my own experiences so it isnt unbiased but nonetheless true in my case. Playing Thor or Spiderman FOF I would find myself so caught up in the game that I'd literally be acting out the moves lol. As spidey when slamming enemies into the ground I would find myself doing an overhead swing even if that was unnecessary, as Thor when ever I did his chain lightning attack I found myself standing legs astride with the remote held high shaking it. This is all subconscious and even when I am trying not to do it out of embarrassment I will slip back into it in the heat of the moment. I dont get that immersion from playing games where I have to target something on the screen with the Wiimote as I am always wrestling to move the cross hair where I want it.

Too bad Denis and SK have been silent running these past few years, it would be awesome to debate these points with him. I really do wish that they would develop smaller XBLA/PC games to polish up the TH control scheme just to give themselves some visibility. I would definitely drop 10 -20 bucks on something like that

[Guirec730]

I'd certainly look long and hard at an SK XBLA game, for sure.

My Wii experience are pretty limited. I enjoyed Dead Space and Madworld, and really liked Mario Galaxy, but I can't say that any of those games were really enhanced my motion (if anything, the incredible imaginations at work in Galaxy were probably hindered by the Wii tech).

[saleem]

Agreed, anything that requires you to aim with that remote tends to be a let down. It just does not feel natural to aim at a a screen, especially one that is small. I suppose it gets better the larger your display is but I cant say for certain. You cant react fast enough nor accurate enough and it ends up being a chore, your literally shooting from the hip so there is very little control or accuracy. It is just one of those things that devs for the platform seemed to latch on to, in their defense they probably felt it provided better immersion. It's funny isnt it how reality and theory dont really match up sometimes, and its that way for motion controls unfortunately.

I do think though that if SK did do something ala TH on the Wii U that they should consider multiple control schemes. Primarily you could use the tablet, with the option for using the pro controller or nunchuck/remote configs as secondary schemes. The tablet and pro controllers would work very similar to the xbox config where as the nunchuck/remote would probably work as a more gesture based control scheme. I could definitely see it working, you would use the nunchuck to move and jump, target selection could probably be relegated to the C button. Attacks could be a combination of left/right/up/down swings with upward flicks being used to initiate juggling. That leaves you with the A,B,1,2,+, - and dpad to map as they please or use as combination keys for different types of moves or camera adjustment.

You should really try Thor or Spiderman: Friend or Foe on the wii if you get the chance. Thats the kind of control scheme that I am referring to whenever I say gesture based. The controls are easy to pick up and you soon forget about the act of controlling your avatar, the games themselves might not be spectacular but the controls are good examples of how devs should have approached the motion stuff.

Side note here, if SK were to release an XBLA game what do you think it should be? I'd personally like to see it be a side story quest for TH. Nothing too elaborate or complicated, have the levels laid out in the same vein as crimson alliance or diablo and have three different classes like commando, bezerker and champion to choose from. You could either play as Baldur or perhaps as a Wolf or Bear trying to earn promotion to be an Aesir only to find out that its all a ruse by Loki who you have to fight in the end, I wouldnt even mind if cut scenes were done in the typical XBLA style of scanned hand drawn art with a bit of VO. Failing that I'd love to see the player cast as either a swashbuckler ala the princess bride or a barbarian ala conan.

[Guirec730]

I don't have a motion plus for that kind of gesture based game, but I heard that Skyward Sword is good. I tend to avoid Marvel stuff if I can help it.

[saleem]

Interestingly enough the motion plus is only really needed for games that use the 1:1 tracking like red steel 2. Gesture based controls have no need for them. I dont blame you for skipping the marvel stuff, most of it is crap. Ironman especially should be avoided as it plays like a third person light gun game.

[Guirec730]

Hmm, looks like the post got deleted but I also really liked Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction.

[saleem]

Yeah thats really odd, even my new ideas thread for TH got deleted - what gives?

Anyway I did mention that I have the Wii version of Hulk and though its a pretty decent sandbox game for that platform as usual cam control is bad.

I like how I could just rampage across the city in that knocking over street lamps.

[Guirec730]

They didn't make the good one. Ultimate Destruction was the good one, it came out in '05-ish. The one for the Wii is the crummy Sega one that tied in (kinda) with the most recent movie.

It was on Gamecube, however.

[saleem]

I wont say crummy exactly lol just not a very compelling game I had more fun climbing walls instead of actually doing the missions.

[Guirec730]

If you get a chance, try Ultimate Destruction. It's older now, but it will always be a fun game, I assure you.

The newer games in the [Prototype] series are an expansion of the ideas in Ultimate Destruction (same team made both games, but I think Hulk is the best of the bunch).

[saleem]

I'll see if I can still pick it up sounds interesting.

It's a shame Denis has been in stealth mode all this while. It would be cool to ask him if he would consider doing an XBLA game in the style of TH.

[Morventhus]

or the sequel be an xbla game xp