The biggest crime...

[Hannar]

After a marathon run of Reckoning last night, I got to thinking about the whole SK situation right now. I believe that as long as there is a SK/Dyack around, that Too Human being finished is a possibility. But the realities of where we've been in the last few years, a new console generation approaching, and the stigma the franchise has earned (unfairly, imo) make me believe we are years away from that actually happening.

The greatest crime was knowing that it's going to be a long time before we actually know how the story ends and which direction Denis and Ken were taking the Norse myths. That was one of the more compelling parts of this whole thing to me.

[Purple Gryphon]

Yeah the wait and uncertainty as to what is going on is killing me. I hope this litigation ends soon and SK comes out on top so they can start to rebuild and focus on games.

[RAziel1979]

EA should buy them and DD should team up with Greg and Ray from Bioware!J/K I hope he likes those guys.

You know, I could wait for TH2 and 3later in the next gen console's life if i have to, but the reality is that they need a big hit this year or the next if they want to stick around making games.

Games like Destiny are not going to cut it as long as there are games like Batman around.
I would also love to see them work on smaller games in between larger games. I think this will help them keep a good relationship with fans while they await the next game.

A huge presence is also needed in the forums they create, be it facebook, twitter, and Youtube. They need to reach more people and people need to know more about them.

I wish them all the best. Get that game plan going.

[Guirec730]

He hasn't had particularly nice things to say about Mass Effect, so I dunno...

[Purple Gryphon]

He hasn't had particularly nice things to say about Mass Effect, so I dunno...

Who has not had nice things to say about Mass Effect? I am pretty sure Denis is on good terms with the guys at Bioware and they at least had some goodwill with EA or they would not have gotten Destiny.

[Guirec730]

Perhaps that was unfair of me. Specifically, I believe he referenced Mass Effect 1's general instability and glitchiness as compared to Too Human's and that Too Human was singled out in reviews compared to Mass Effect in that regard.

Not a particularly nice thing to say, but not necessarily a bad thing either. It was more of a comment on the quality of TH reviews than ME's actual quality, upon further reflection on it. I just assumed by the nature of the comment that he might not have actually liked the game.

[FoxbaT]

Not sure if that´s the biggest crime... or if the biggest crime is knowing how TH would had a better luck if the EPIC issue never happened or if SK had the vision to create their own engine in the first place.

I think that if the engine was in the plans since the beggining, we would have TH2 already up and other cool games being released, just like Rockstar did with their engine while creating GTA IV and the great stories they told with Red Dead Redemption and LA Noire using the same engine.

[Xenon]

The biggest crime was SK over-promised and under-delivered. While I'm sure there was pressure from MS to hype the game, they never should have mentioned 4 player co-op until it was certain it was going to release with it. That alone caused much ill will toward the game from the community. SK promised a deep story. But I got much more out of the interviews about Too Human than playing the game itself. SK promised down loadable content. Hell, they even had a store built into the game... We all know how that worked out. Finally they have done nothing to support their game or their community. I know they are locked in a lawsuit . However, I can't imagine that prevents them from patching their game.

I'd suggest that SK run a Kickstart campaign for TH2 but even as a huge fan of Too Human I would have a problem giving SK my money.

[Guirec730]

I wouldn't. But I'd be less confident of it being put to good use than I would in giving it to Tim Schaffer, though (which might be unfair but Tim's games are smaller in scope than Too Human).

[RAziel1979]

If they run a campaign to kickstart a project, I would give them money.

[Yarrrmonger7]

The biggest crime was SK over-promised and under-delivered. While I'm sure there was pressure from MS to hype the game, they never should have mentioned 4 player co-op until it was certain it was going to release with it. That alone caused much ill will toward the game from the community. SK promised a deep story. But I got much more out of the interviews about Too Human than playing the game itself. SK promised down loadable content. Hell, they even had a store built into the game... We all know how that worked out. Finally they have done nothing to support their game or their community. I know they are locked in a lawsuit . However, I can't imagine that prevents them from patching their game.

I'd suggest that SK run a Kickstart campaign for TH2 but even as a huge fan of Too Human I would have a problem giving SK my money.

Damn SNAP... Not quite sure why you are on this site then??? Either you lie the game and would buy a sequel or not. What does it really have to do with the company? Besides I'm pretty sure they would make the game to the upmost of their abilities just for the fact that it is Denis' baby... I wish I had a baby like this.

[Maawdawg]

I mostly agree with Xenon, SK's handling of the launch, the game since, and the community itself are "the biggest crime" and those are many of the root causes of what Hannar considers his biggest crime for the game (the possibility of "the trilogy" ending in a single game and the story going unfinished). If the game wasn't marketed so poorly, wasn't overhyped, and also thrown out there in a confrontation (towards people who should have been customers and not enemies) we may have been able to see a timeframe for a sequel already (or a sequel at all someday).

Liking a game is one thing but putting on blinders to ignore the string of errors and bungles around it is a bit shortsighted, imo. There were promises of support for the game and the community made and I am having a hard time thinking of one that has been honored. Even simple things like community game nights (and apparently shipping out prizes from community events) have been blown off after being arranged in good faith. From launch day on even simple forum posting to clarify game bugs and errors had been ignored, making the community do everything on its own to support the game when simple answers could have saved fans of the game hours and hours of testing while devs were here lurking rather than participating and assisting. Things that literally take a few minutes or hours to do haven't been bothered with, nevermind an actual patch process or DLC. When you look at how many other high quality devs handle their games and fans it leaves you wanting when a company you expect far more of drops the ball completely.

As to why people who are disappointed with all of that are still here? For me it is because of what I wanted this game to be, what I though SK could deliver, and for the people at the site (mostly). I really would like to see SK get their head on straight and deliver on the trilogy, improve on the start they made with TH, and actually show some decent sense in community interaction but as the years pass it becomes harder to do so. I hope SK does well in their litigation but them winning some money isn't going to instantly fix the damage done with the decisions they made that have damaged the company in the past few years.

[Xenon]

Damn SNAP... Not quite sure why you are on this site then??? Either you lie the game and would buy a sequel or not. What does it really have to do with the company? Besides I'm pretty sure they would make the game to the upmost of their abilities just for the fact that it is Denis' baby... I wish I had a baby like this.

I am here because Too Human is one of my favorite games of this gen and easily one of the more original titles. While I know TH is pretty much dead, I keep checking this site hoping I’m wrong.

As far as a sequel concerned I would most likely buy it. If there is one thing that would hold me back, it would be Silicon Knight’s poor support for its previous product. I normally only buy new games because I like to support the developers. With TH2 I may make the exception simply out of principle. Hell I have stopped myself from buying Too Human on demand because I refuse to give SK any more cash. It’s a shame too because I would probably play it more if I didn’t have to put in the disk. Yes, Im that lazy =P I don't see how you can seperate the Company from the game. When you buy a product from Bungie or Blizzard you know you'll be getting plenty of updates and extra content since they have built a reputation for supporting their games. I find SK's lack support shocking. I can't think of any action RPG like Too Human that didn't have a number of patches. Even the piece of crap Two Worlds was supported with updates.

[Jurgy]

Xenon and Maaw... You've summed up my thoughts on this beautifully. I loved Too Human... I duped my way to over 3000+ hours on that game. But the lack of support for the game or even for this small community of faithful cult-like followers bothers me. Knowing the devs lurked here in the early days and did nothing bothers me. Seeing DD come in here and post 3 word messages randomly and never answer important questions bothers me. I got barely $1 at gamestop for trade in value on my copy for TH. That, the 3000+ hours of gameplay, and the look I got from the guy at gamestop is all expect to get from SK. I dont ever see them being a heavy hitter after all the bad press for TH, the blatant disregard for what fans they do have, and their over-inflated sense of "vision" versus actual functionality. TH2 will never come, imo. And before I'm asked, I stick around this community for the people I met here.

[kouper]

The biggest crime is the complete inability and ineptitude SK has when it comes to dealing with people. Whether it's DD raging at people on forums, him saying they're playing it wrong rathe than face the fact that there where some poor design choices made, or completely ignoring your own forum.....

[Hannar]

It's unfortunate, and I can definitely see the perspective where folks think the game was abandoned. I cannot comment on the specifics because the information was provided to me in confidence, but the ideas that SK did not care about DLC, 4-player co-op, or patching the game are all, to the very best of my knowledge, off base.

This particular site wouldn't exist without SK, simply because when our original site crashed and our original admin disappeared, I lacked any ability to create anything new. SK built this site for us, and continues to at least cover the expense to this day. I have basically nothing to do with how the site is run any more, but I still keep coming back because I do believe the above perceptions, although understandable, are incorrect. If they were correct, there would never be a reason to support an SK product again at any point.

[RAziel1979]

I just want to see Baldur punch(or kill) Heimdall for sending him to do his dirty work! PLEASE DD.

[kouper]

I just want to see Baldur punch(or kill) Heimdall for sending him to do his dirty work! PLEASE DD.

At this point all I want is to see Baldur again....

[Guirec730]

I just want to see Baldur punch(or kill) Heimdall for sending him to do his dirty work! PLEASE DD.

Raz, you play Arkham City, right? All the Tyger guards have Heimdall's voice actor. You can punch him yourself!

[saleem]

You know that it is entirely possible that SK was prevented from applying patches and deploying new content due to the law suit. It seems to be the most logical reason to me, I wouldnt be surprised if they completely underestimated how long the damned trial would take.

As for the biggest crime: Well thats obvious - It's SK NOT putting a training video or tutorial in too human. It would have gotten much better reviews if people actually knew how to play it instead of having to guess and grope around blindly or in forums.

[RAziel1979]

Raz, you play Arkham City, right? All the Tyger guards have Heimdall's voice actor. You can punch him yourself!

Cool I didn't know that.
I'm done with that game for now. Waiting for new content to come out though.

[lordhering]

The biggest crime is that the litigation process sucks. Until the court decides who owns the SK engine and the content it produced along with what was made using UE3 and it's code we will know nothing. SK wants to do something but legally they can't.

[kouper]

It's unfortunate, and I can definitely see the perspective where folks think the game was abandoned. I cannot comment on the specifics because the information was provided to me in confidence, but the ideas that SK did not care about DLC, 4-player co-op, or patching the game are all, to the very best of my knowledge, off base.

This particular site wouldn't exist without SK, simply because when our original site crashed and our original admin disappeared, I lacked any ability to create anything new. SK built this site for us, and continues to at least cover the expense to this day. I have basically nothing to do with how the site is run any more, but I still keep coming back because I do believe the above perceptions, although understandable, are incorrect. If they were correct, there would never be a reason to support an SK product again at any point.

You believe the above opinions to be incorrect, but it's based on information given in confidence correct? In other words, the above opinions are in fact correct. Did SK do anything to show us they cared about the game after the fact? Small anniversary events that started out ok before they turned in to a reason to call SK Dishonest. How about the game, patches, updates, dlc, some of the promises on the game before it launched? Nothing. How about basic communication from the company who pays to keep this site going, and thus basically owns it? None. The fact is, SK blows terribly when it comes to communication and PR. As I've said before, there are few game devs I can think of who communicate less with their fans and the ones I think of offhand happen to be far better at supporting their games afterwards.

Look, I love TH, I really want to see SK come out of the legal issues fine purely because of TH. I understand how ****ty legal issues can be, in fact I will step out on a limb and say that in all likely hood I have experienced the negative end of the US legal system far more dramatically than any other poster on this site. If part of the legal stipulations say SK can't talk about TH till after the suit? Fine, their lawyers suggest it? Fine. However that shouldn't stop them from having any communication with us at all. Especially about other projects, or past projects, or other interests.

I also understand that posting on forums isn't everyone's cup of tea, however it is sort of an industry norm. And it's a great way to keep in touch with, or show appreciation of your fans. I do think a decent comparison is between here and IGC. IGC, for those who don't know, is basically all posters from here. It was started when both Hannar and Admin were completely mia, and the site was being gangraped by spammers, for lack of a better term. Over at IGC, all but 2 or so of our normal posters are TH.net posters, one of those two is quite different though. He is the DD for a different developer, actively seeking out forums that have active discussions about his game, and answering questions and gathering feedback, and joking around. We've gotten more answers from him in a week, than we've gotten from DD or basically anyone at SK in years.

The only two people I've heard anything positive from regarding TH2, are Hannar, and a member who got to tour SK and had to remove his posts at the request of the company, I only know vaguely what happened based on the responses to his posts. I understand that even if SK is planning anything with TH or TH2 they can't because of the litigation, but them saying Hey, we'd love to do these things but our hands are tied, or Hey, we'd love to discuss this with you guys but we can't, is worlds better than.............................................. .................................................

[Purple Gryphon]

Kouper, I don't think Hannar was saying that the perception was wrong. What I think he was saying is that he does not believe the that the realty is that SK or Denis do not care about the community or game. I am not going to recount my experiences with SK here but obviously Hannar and I have had a lot more access to SK and that will color our perception of events. I would not still be here if I felt that SK did not care and just abandoned the game. As Hannar has said the forum would not even exist now if SK really did abandon the fans. But I totally get people wanting more communication and information.

SK definately seems to have missed the information boom in gaming. If SK was pumping out games people probably would not care as much. But you have to remember that SK came from an age where developers and gamers did not have the free flow of information we have now and they were not set up for it. Have you ever even been to SK's official website? I doubt many people know it even exists. SK also did not have an official forum. They adopted this site during/after TH which started as a fan site.

We all know SK must be struggling to keep the doors open and developing. Look at how many developers we have lost or have been scalled back this generation even ones that were percieved as more succesful than SK. They most likily do not have the resources to expend to employ staffing to focus on maintaining a forum and website along with twitter, facebook and what ever else people are using these days.

I have joined very few online forums and have been active in far less. There are also few developers that I care about past the game they make. I have gotten way more out of my interaction with this forum and SK than I ever imagined was possible. It really hurts me to see fans of the game and SK feel abandoned by the game and SK. If I did not feel that the litigation and the harsh reception that TH got did not affect what has been going on with SK I would not support them now. I would just ask that others give SK the benefit of the doubt until the litigation is resolved. I don't think things will change the day after the litigation is over but I am sure the court documents will reveal more about what has been happening. Even the few things that we have gotten so far have revealed some pretty interesting stuff.

[kouper]

Explain the difference between perception and reality. The fact is, outside of I guess 3 people with some insider knowledge, there is NOTHING to say otherwise, perception is all that matters.

One thing I did leave out, which I wasn't thinking of because of how late it is, is some of their rare communications are also just asinine. "The new X-men Destiny screens look like ****" "Well that's because it's a leak that wasn't supposed to get out" "It's Xbox magazine and says it's an official preview overseen by you guys" "..." Game releases, supposed leaked screens are final images... And don't leave out how hard you tried to get them to do the anniversary event only to have them pull a no show and not do the things they said they would. I joined here just a few days after or before TH released, definitely newer than the majority of our active posters, but I've been here long enough, that my perception of how SK communicates is not positive at all. DD Takes the apple approach to customer complaints, starting flame wars on other forums and telling customers and reviewers their doing it wrong. (They definitely where but there are far more intelligent and PR sensitive ways to do so that would actually have helped his situation.) Followed by an enormous chunk of silence, one week of communication twice over the anniversary, and then lies. Seriously, straight up lies. At this point, other than a TH game, I don't know if I'd support SK. I hope their lawsuit goes well... But other than continuing the trilogy, they are right up there with EA in bad practice land according to my perception.

Honestly PG, as much as you point out this site wouldn't be here without SK paying for it, it wouldn't be here at all if it weren't for you getting admin status and finally taking care of it. And Im sorry you have to deal with this as much as you do. I'm just frustrated and at this point... blah.