A limit to human knowledge?

[Redenbacher09]

The thought just popped in to my head, and I tried to discuss it with a friend, but he was more interested in the current possibilities than the actual concept... but anyway...

Is there a limit to human knowledge?

What I mean by this is with the rapid advancement of technology, the advent of the internet, and other items, the average knowledge of people has increased tremendously.

Going with the cybernetic augmentation theme of Too Human, and the "Install information directly in to your brain" concept in The Matrix, I'd like to see that actually happen. Plug yourself in to a machine and learn anything you want to know.

I'm always looking to learn new things, and technology fascinates me, my question is simply my curiosity in how much information can the brain possibly hold? I figure experts in a particular field are holding "Gigs upon Gigs" of information.

If you could learn anything you wanted, would you run out of "space" to learn new things? Would you have to "delete" unused information? Or would your brain take it upon itself to start erasing knowledge?

[Shikamaru07]

i personly think the hunger for knowlege cant be fullfilled because if it did what would your reason be to live if you know everything?..its like on heros with Syler he has a unfullfillable hunger to understand everything and once he gets more he just gets worst becanse one aswer adds 2 more questions

[Purple Gryphon]

There is a limit to any one persons knowledge. But we only use about 20% of the brains current potential so if we could find ways to access that then we could potentially do a lot more.

But think about savontes (sp?) They have the capacity to do a few things extremely well play music just by hearing it, or do complex equations in their head but then other parts of normal living is difficult. If you could some how be functional and still tap into these "superhuman" abilities then who knows what limits human intellegence could reach.

But if you are talking about merging humans for processing and computers for information storage then that is a whole new level. You would only be limited by the amount of storage space you could access.

[SpazROK]

I am only limited by what I'm not able to find on Google.

[Nicholbert]

I am only limited by what I'm not able to find on Google.

Google FTW! Implant Google in my head please...

[Redenbacher09]

:rolleyes: Touche, Spaz.

The hunger for knowledge will never be satisfied, that is for certain.

However, if say you were able to have something installed, similar to The Matrix, where you could simply plug a cable into your brain, and learn how to do or know anything you please, could you brain contain it all?

Obviously an unanswerable question, but an interesting one none the less. I mean, if you were to price the capacity of your brain, how many Gigabytes or Terabytes (or greater) of knowledge could it contain?

I read an article that researchers in Israel had created an AND gate using neurons, and I figure that is one step closer to decoding the brains ability to process knowledge, and therefore our ability to digitally input knowledge.

[PsyXel]

Simple answer: We don't know. Nobody has lived long enough to know everything and we don't have the technology or methods to do that kind of research.

Do people who live today know more then people who lived 50 years ago? Yes, I believe we do because of the advances in medicine, technology, as well as social interaction.

Honestly I don't believe we'll get to the point of "The Matrix"...getting jacked into a computer system and the our brains filling up with knowledge. I believe the Mastrix movies revolved around a conundrum. The people who learned these abilities in the matrix didn't practice them in the actual world. When Neo was in the real world, you never saw him do kung fu. The only time you see Neo fight in the real world was the third movie where he fights agent smith and gets blinded. He doesn't do any kind of move to indicate he learned anything.
With that said, and taking the experience from the movies, will hooking yourself up to a machine only give you fond memories of knowing what to do, but not being able to carry such actions out because you have no muscle memory?

Another conundrum in the movie is that when you die in the matrix, your body dies because it can't live without the mind. Being a religious person, I believe we have a soul and are self aware of our existance. what I got from the movie was if we are jacked in, it's basically saying that our soul is put into the matrix and if our soul dies our body dies. I however don't think your soul can be manifested into a computer because I believe the soul to be more then just electrical currents and organic tissue.
Thinking of this strickly on science, while we have electricity traveling through our brain, we are still alive. Our mind is still alive and we are able to think. If the movie was done realisitcally, you would have a connection to The Matrix like you would a video game. You would have a view into the world, interact with it, and then if you were to die or someone be removed from that world, your mindset would return to the real world or, another point of fact, since you don't really exist in that world, you wouldn't die.

Anyways, I digress.

I believe knowledge is only retained at the extent of it's importance to the individual. Yes we could probably learn all the knowledge in the world, but it would be hard to retain it.

[Ender]

There are limits in our brains. It is demonstrated by the autistic savants, like PG said.

Those people are extremely good at one thing, but other areas usually take a hit, due to lack of "processing power" of the brain. Usually what takes a hit is social skill. Take Kim Peek as an example. The guy has absolutely amazing memory, and probably has abilities that we don't even know he has yet- most recently demonstrated when a professional pianist of some sort found out that he had 'true pitch', and could play the piano rather easily.

Up to the age of 25, our brain produces too many neural networks, which explains how it's so easy for children to drink up new languages, and learn new skills like music. When we age, our brain has to decide which functions and abilities are more important to us, and what it determines is not often used is lost. This is all just generalized, but there you have it.

The space of our brain is not enough to hold all of what we were once capable of doing. I'm not sure why our brains can have the capability at one point in time, and then not be able to uphold it throughout our lives. I'm sure it was addressed on the show I watched to learn all of this, but I was probably semi-distracted by my dog or on my laptop or something.

The brain has limited space, and we could not just learn everything by plugging a wire into it. Unless of course we get added memory banks, which is not impossible- I would bet.

[Plague Of Me]

I am only limited by what I'm not able to find on Google.
I think this is the answer down the line. A single human brain has a limited capacity for knowledge. We may not understand the mechanics at a very fine level, but because it's a physical strucutre, there is a limit. Even if there is ever a way to stop the neural degredation that is part of aging, there will always be a limit as long as we are tied to a physical form. I believe the expansion will come in the form of what the Ghost in the Shell universe calls "external memory." As technology integrates more fully with the human body, I believe there will be practical applications that enable storage of information technically outside of, but easily accessible to, our own physical brains.

One of the big problems I forsee is that of context. Knowledge, as abstract an idea as it is, seems to present itself in the form of memory. Our memories build and chain off of eachother, each contributing to some body of knowledge. If information is stored outside of our own little neural network, will we be able to maintain context? If not, will it be necessary to "import" the information before it is useful, like data moving from RAM to a CPU register? The danger there is described in Dan Simmons' novel Hyperion. The character Martin Selenus (I think I got the name right) was plugged in to an information structure similar to the Internet with a shunt to the brain. He noticed a problem when he could no longer reliably recall information without checking the web first. Left on his own, he began to blur all of it together, misremembering names, dates, just about everything. It was a complete loss of context. In the end, he had to disconnect from these external sources to retrain his brain to enforce context again.

External memory devices, and in turn external processing, could turn out to be our own golden apples, at once a great strength and a great weakness.

[Stickee Clutch]

There is a limit to any one persons knowledge. But we only use about 20% of the brains current potential so if we could find ways to access that then we could potentially do a lot more.

But think about savontes (sp?) They have the capacity to do a few things extremely well play music just by hearing it, or do complex equations in their head but then other parts of normal living is difficult. If you could some how be functional and still tap into these "superhuman" abilities then who knows what limits human intellegence could reach.

But if you are talking about merging humans for processing and computers for information storage then that is a whole new level. You would only be limited by the amount of storage space you could access.

Sorry to correct you, but 13% is the percentage of what a genius uses and they burnout/go crazy. Human brain compresses old information and uncompresses it when useful. Our dreams act like memory dumps when we get a good night's sleep. That's the difference between us and the dolphins who theoretically have more capacity than us. Lots of Science and Discovery Channel is my source.:D

[PsyXel]

Sorry to correct you, but 13% is the percentage of what a genius uses and they burnout/go crazy. Human brain compresses old information and uncompresses it when useful. Our dreams act like memory dumps when we get a good night's sleep. That's the difference between us and the dolphins who theoretically have more capacity than us. Lots of Science and Discovery Channel is my source.:D

Funny little insert I have:
Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy has us being the third most intelligent being on the planet, behind dolphins and mice.

not trying to be serious, just wanting to lighte the mood.

[Redenbacher09]

I think some interesting information has been passed around thus far.

As technology becomes more mobile and our access to information becomes easier, I think many people will essentially just rely on reaching in their pocket to pull out their pocket internet tablet to figure out the answer. Or even throw on a pair of shades that have a screen projected on them, call out what you want and poof there it is.

My point being that what was said above is true. There is a limit, but no need to test it. As our ability to store external data, and retrieve it, improves, we may not need to use our brains as much for memory., Rather use it more so for interpretation and skill, which can not be stored in a database, least not yet.

Perhaps humans are evolving, not physically, but through technology and adaptation we will create a collective body of knowledge to continue to advance.

[Janot79]

After reading through all of these posts a question popped into my head.
Could we by relying on technology to find answers and make our lives easier, actually be making us a little dumber. I mean think about it. How many times do you find yourselves looking up something on the internet, only to find that you are looking up something you've already researched. I think having information that is easily accessible has made the human race a little lazy when it comes to taking the time to actually learn something. Take for instance the calculator, why learn how to multiply or divide when you can use the calculator. Why learn how to figure out complex mathematic solutions when you can pull out your trusty texas instument? It's sad, and i'm not gonna lie i'm one of them. I used to be wicked at math but because of that one little piece of technology i've become lazy and have not tried to figure out problems that i used to with a pencil and pad.

[Nimander]

After reading through all of these posts a question popped into my head.
Could we by relying on technology to find answers and make our lives easier, actually be making us a little dumber. I mean think about it. How many times do you find yourselves looking up something on the internet, only to find that you are looking up something you've already researched. I think having information that is easily accessible has made the human race a little lazy when it comes to taking the time to actually learn something. Take for instance the calculator, why learn how to multiply or divide when you can use the calculator. Why learn how to figure out complex mathematic solutions when you can pull out your trusty texas instument? It's sad, and i'm not gonna lie i'm one of them. I used to be wicked at math but because of that one little piece of technology i've become lazy and have not tried to figure out problems that i used to with a pencil and pad.

I would agree. Instead of thinking critically about something people just use a site like wikipedia, and don't realize that the information you are reading may not be accurate.

Also we are starting to suffer from data over load. I think that youtube or games like spore are a good example of this. there is so much user generated content that is just.... terrible. Who has the time to sort through it all and find the interesting content?

[AKAtheMilkman]

The thought just popped in to my head, and I tried to discuss it with a friend, but he was more interested in the current possibilities than the actual concept... but anyway...

Is there a limit to human knowledge?

What I mean by this is with the rapid advancement of technology, the advent of the internet, and other items, the average knowledge of people has increased tremendously.

Going with the cybernetic augmentation theme of Too Human, and the "Install information directly in to your brain" concept in The Matrix, I'd like to see that actually happen. Plug yourself in to a machine and learn anything you want to know.

I'm always looking to learn new things, and technology fascinates me, my question is simply my curiosity in how much information can the brain possibly hold? I figure experts in a particular field are holding "Gigs upon Gigs" of information.

If you could learn anything you wanted, would you run out of "space" to learn new things? Would you have to "delete" unused information? Or would your brain take it upon itself to start erasing knowledge?

The human brain can hold up to about ten terabites of data. But the way we store info is radically different then how computers do it. Computers store every little detail of whatever is put into it. Where as the human brain only store the information as a whole. This way the human brain can store much more then a computer. But there is still a limit to how much it can hold. Your brain will never hit a point where you just stop being able to input more data because your brain is constantly deleting data that it deams unimportant. If you want a too human analogy you can think of it as a tiny niddhog swimming around in your head deleting stuff that you fail to keep relevant

[Eleazar]

Scientists believe that at one point in time all humans had photographic memories. The reason we don't still have photographic memories as a species anymore is because our brains needed to make room for language. If true, which I doubt, I would say that is a definite sign of us have a limit to our knowledge.

As far as how much our brains can hold as in bites, I don't think any scientist knows, nor do I believe that we could currentlt wrap our minds around how much it actually is.

[Batou079]

Not to mention the question of our humanity.
The more integrated we make technology in our lives, how do we remain grounded?
Once we get into actual cyberization (lol...50-100 yrs away), it becomes a question of the human soul, if one believes in it. Or in the very least, the question regarding the possibility of losing our humanity the more we blend with technology.

This is why i love Ghost in the Shell. Social prospectives on this very question.
Some episodes get so deep into it, it can be hard to follow!

And as far as actual data that our minds can store. I very much believe it is finite and not infinite. Human recall of memory is an amazing thing, but utlimatly inefficient. The more a person tries to learn, the harder it becomes to retain. Like Eleazar pointed out, scientists believe this is part of the reason humans as a species no longer have the natural photographic memory that we once may have had.

Or it could just be that i believe this idea because im so damn forgetful. *shrug* idk :D

[JacobChulainn]

Going with the cybernetic augmentation theme of Too Human, and the "Install information directly in to your brain" concept in The Matrix, I'd like to see that actually happen. Plug yourself in to a machine and learn anything you want to know.

My bit of knowledge, - The Matrix borrowed heavily from Ghost In The Shell which is more like Too Humans theme of cybernetics and humanity.

[Lykathea]

What I mean by this is with the rapid advancement of technology, the advent of the internet, and other items, the average knowledge of people has increased tremendously.

I don't know how true that last statement is at all.

[Redenbacher09]

I don't know how true that last statement is at all.

Now that you mention it, you have a good point. The wealth of knowledge easily and quickly available to humans is greater than ever. That's what I meant :).

The knowledge individuals maintain is probably less.

Good call.

[Shaynard]

I don't know how true that last statement is at all.


I was just about to say this.. lol

In a way.. Having the knowledge so easily available can do as much harm as good. People become "lazy" and assume everything they are reading is true, more so than before the internet in my observation.

Not that, thats really your idea here anyways :)


I too spent much time contimplating the idea of "uploading" knowledge and skill. Some interesting things to concider. I have seen things happen in life that shouldn't be "possible" and all can be attributed to "mind over matter". Which is why the first thing I think of is "I know Kung Fu".

There is only so much of an art such as Kung Fu that can be learned with your mind. The rest requires training your body. I;m not sure there is a way for your mind to tell you body it can stretch or move faster than it previously could.. but I guess it wouldn't negate that you have that knowledge regardless of whether you body can physically execute it. On the other hand, as I said, I have personally witnessed demonstrations of physicality that should not have been possible physically, but the mind power made it possible...

I read in Scientific America they are doing extensive research on the brain to properly understand why we only use 10-20% and what would happen, or if it's even possible, to use more. So far I have read of some pretty interesting gagets such as being able to manipulate the electrical currents in the mind with the use of magnetics to disable certain parts of the brain function. The research and application began as a way to test "handicapped" minds. The same article went on to say the US army purchased the technology and was planning to use it for soilders in time of war. As example, disabling sections of the brain process pain and Fatigue. Thats a huge step towards developing the technology to enable parts of the brain as well.

I recently met a young man who had electronic ears. He had two computer chips installed on his head that magnetically attached two "receptors" that procesed sound for him. It works! We had him in our recording studio testing his ears with different frequecies and such.. He could "hear" things we couldn't.. What we had no way of knowing was what he heard, or rather how the computer processed the sound... Interesting and definitely a step towards this idea.

"How do we know chicken tastes like chicken?"

[Castrum]

I read in Scientific America they are doing extensive research on the brain to properly understand why we only use 10-20% and what would happen, or if it's even possible, to use more. So far I have read of some pretty interesting gagets such as being able to manipulate the electrical currents in the mind with the use of magnetics to disable certain parts of the brain function. The research and application began as a way to test "handicapped" minds. The same article went on to say the US army purchased the technology and was planning to use it for soilders in time of war. As example, disabling sections of the brain process pain and Fatigue. Thats a huge step towards developing the technology to enable parts of the brain as well.

Well, first off, a different article I read said that prior popular claims of humans only using "10% of their brains" was a false statement, as MRI scans and such showed that humans usually used up to 90% of their brain's overall capacity in day-to-day events. The only way I could fathom expanding its use beyond that is in the application of mental techniques and/or mechanical apparatuses that tweak and modify (or perhaps add on to) our current brain structure.

Secondly, everything comes with a price, as I'm sure you know. Giving people power over your mental and bodily functions is a very, very risky situation, especially in the military (ex. abuse of power = "Kill them or I kill you from 10 miles away with a button"). Aside from the obvious chance for abuse, there's also how the body naturally reacts to consider: fatigue and pain are the body's indicators that you either need rest and/or you need to pay attention to a specific part of your body. Eliminating those things can obviously assist a soldier in combat, but what are the ramifications of doing so? When does the effect wear off? When does the effect, perhaps, become permanent? The human body is very modifiable, in regards to its pattern formation; continued use of said pain/fatigue inhibitors could lead to the body eventually forgetting how to remind you about those factors, leading to God-knows how many issues with war veterans (as if we don't have enough issues already).

I like the fact that science is progressing, but at what cost? In our quest to eliminate all these past issues, we in turn create more issues that we don't seem to be addressing (ex. cleaner environments = less regular germs = more super-germs [antibiotic/vaccine-resistant] = more super-germ outbreaks = more death and long-term-damage disease outbreaks than before most likely).

[Shaynard]

Quote Castrum ^^

I believe it's meant as we use 10-20% at a time. I (think) I read the same article you mean and the proof was that the entire brain (area) is utilized, therefor making the statement "we only use 10%" technically false. 10% was the assumed utilization prior to further concideration, the 10-20% statistic I had read implied to use at any given time. Much like memory research trying to understand short term memory and stating the human mind can only remember X amount of things at once, in the short term memory. Or like a CPU consumsion on a PC. Yahoo Messenger uses X% of the computers brain while internet explorer is using X% but my PC can only run at X% at a time without "glitching out".

I definitely agree in regards to the dangers of that specific technology, and (FTR this is not a dig at the military) I was less than happy to hear they purchased the technology. Even the applications outside the military are questionable and require proper concideration as to the risks involved.

Technology always come at a cost IMO, one often overlooked by eager individuals.

[TheRallyKiller]

You may learn more but would you fully understand or comprehend it? As they say in Star Wars; the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Humans are capable of great things and just like every other living thing in existence we have unique traits - one of which is our ability to reason and look beyond and between information to discern other things.

I would be afraid that in our endeavor to better ourselves we'll leave some of our strengths behind to wither and die - in essence making us smarter will really cripple us.

[EightBall]

There is no point having the knowledge without the ability to understand and use it.
The brain already deletes memories and knowledge, due to our evolution where we our brains only kept knowledge that was relevant to us on a day to day basis.
We cannot work out the limits to our minds until we know how it actually works, scientists are consistenly stumped by these simple questions.

[Redenbacher09]

That's a good point EightBall. Hypothetically though, what if there came a time where a vast wealth of knowledge was relevant and necessary on a daily basis? I'm just curious if the brain itself actually has a limit to the amount of data it can store, like a hard drive. Furthermore, would we know when we've hit that limit?

I assume it would be along the lines of learning and understanding something new, then trying to recall past knowledge and being unable to shortly after. I have to imagine it would result in quite the conundrum.



Unrelated, your avatar creeps the hell out of me.

[FoxbaT]

this is a really cool thread, thankfully EightBall got it out from the limb.

I think that there is boundaries to the human knowledgement, but not in terms of how many information we can store, because our brain works as a buffer of information where the information that it's not accessed goes in the back and the recent memories goes on the front. The information in the back start to lose "quality" or just become a dazzed memory, you can remember if you try enough, or if you read something about it again, but this information is in fact getting less and less "media space" out of your memory buffer :)

So you can always learn new things, forgetting things you don't use very often.

So, I don't believe we have boundaries on the quantity of information we can store, but I believe that there are some concepts human beings will never be able to fully understand. Or to develop. I will try to organize the thoughts and will come back latter :)

[Scorp]

I don't think anyone has ever had there brain full of information, but the other issue is accessing everything you have learned.
Some people remember every color/smell sound for events thats a vast amount of info, we all that that ability I think it is just how much/well we aceess that info, and correlate the links between the info.

[AKAtheMilkman]

OLD!
That's a good point EightBall. Hypothetically though, what if there came a time where a vast wealth of knowledge was relevant and necessary on a daily basis? I'm just curious if the brain itself actually has a limit to the amount of data it can store, like a hard drive. Furthermore, would we know when we've hit that limit?

I assume it would be along the lines of learning and understanding something new, then trying to recall past knowledge and being unable to shortly after. I have to imagine it would result in quite the conundrum.



Unrelated, your avatar creeps the hell out of me.


The human brain can hold up to about ten terabites of data. But the way we store info is radically different then how computers do it. Computers store every little detail of whatever is put into it. Where as the human brain only store the information as a whole. This way the human brain can store much more then a computer. But there is still a limit to how much it can hold. Your brain will never hit a point where you just stop being able to input more data because your brain is constantly deleting data that it deams unimportant. If you want a too human analogy you can think of it as a tiny niddhog swimming around in your head deleting stuff that you fail to keep relevant

^That^

Your also forgetting the rate at which technology is multiplying. I'm sure that before we reach a point where we can't store all human knowledge in our brain we'll have found a way to expand our storage capacity.

[batosai]

Johnny-Numonic.

[Redenbacher09]

OLD!



^That^

Your also forgetting the rate at which technology is multiplying. I'm sure that before we reach a point where we can't store all human knowledge in our brain we'll have found a way to expand our storage capacity.

Good call, completely missed that post :p

Looking forward to having a USB slot in the back of my skull.

[Wiiggin]

Looking forward to having a USB slot in the back of my skull.

Pfft, SD is where it's at. :p