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efebei
10-08-2008, 02:00 PM
Hi everyone, although Iīm a new member here, Iīve posted on the other toohuman.net versions before, and usually watch this forums. Iīm Spaniard, so please, try to use your best reading skills ;).

First of all, congratulations Silicon Knights for making such an interesting game. When I first heard Denis Dyack telling that Too Human was going to be their best game I didnīt know what to think. Now, that Iīve played it all, I agree with him (well, Iīve only played Eternal Darkness among their other games :confused:). But it has its flaws, and they are BIG ones. On one hand I feel that story, music, gameplay, depth and replayability are much better than in Eternal Darkness, on the other hand Too Human feels much more unpolished, and the game experience is disappointing for the player in many ways.

Iīm looking forward to Too Human II, so Iīm gonna list all the errors and flaws I have seen and some of their probable solutions. I know Too Human has a difficult path to get a sequel, but this notes should help for its development if Microsoft or another partner decides to support it. First off all (red text) Iīll list the major flaws of the title that need to be solved to appeal to the mass market (you know, good reviews and first month sales over 500.000 units). In yellow are other important topics to improve the overall experience. Finally in green, there are other minor ideas (less important). All is listed in order of priority, indeed.

Major flaws (or why Too Human is rated so poorly)

* The animation system needs to be completely rebuilt. It does not work. The in-game animations keep most of the potential buyers away of Too Human. It looks worse than most of the dungeon crawlers and action games out there. The collision detection has to be revised too, there are many weird bugs because of it, and it doesnīt help the combat to feel more badass.

* The camera system. It worked very well in Eternal Darkness (in fact the personality of this game is mainly in its camera), but in Too Human it makes no sense. On the one hand the system rarely provides cinematic views (I think its possibilities are mostly missed and only used in the Hall of Heroes and some parts of World Serpent), on the other hand it hurts sometimes the combat experience, and rarely can become crazy (always in case of the circular scenarios). So this is an unfortunate paradox. Furthermore I feel that some of the framerate problems could be caused by the camera, Am I wrong? So the camera needs to be fixed and the cinematic presentation of the game needs to be enhanced too.

* Too Human II has to have a tutorial. It needs a way to explain interactively how to use the charms and runes, besides a good learning curve and some kind of mechanism to get used to the combat and combo system. This is another paradox, because when Too Human was first conceived, Silicon Knights argued that one of the most important features was the intuitive controls that would let any kind of player to get used easily to the gameplay, appealing to a wider audience. Actually Too Human gameplay is super-complex.

* The sandbox is SegaSaturn-timeslike :o. AAA titles today canīt have such an amount of invisible walls. Too Human is replete of them. Baldur needs to interact at least a bit with the scenarios. They are giant imperturbable spaces, where the godlike main character canīt climb a single rock.

* Cyberspace. One of the major design fails in the game, it totally breaks the flow of the game with its large ugly corridors and its boring… puzzles? Cyberspace needs to feel a warm and full of life place opposed to the icy and denatured reality. Rebuilt it with better graphics (they are now ps2-like) and other gameplay essence beyond the only aim of opening doors and collect loot. And please, its extension doesnīt need to be so large.

* 4 player Co-op.

Other less important improvements :

* Subtitles. Half of the game is not subtitled (all the in-game talks and some cutscenes). I donīt know who is the responsible for this failure, Silicon Knights or Microsoft Game Studios. But they have lost a lot of potential buyers out of the spanish market, among others, because we cannot understand half of the plot and the overall experience suffers (voice acting is not performed in spanish). I should have coloured this improvement in red, but I understand that this doesnīt affect the public of the countries where the voice acting has been translated.

* Sound design. Jumping sound effect is a pain. With an incredible good music and voice acting, the rest of the sound design is chaotic. Some things, like the missiles, sound really loud, and doesnīt fit in the overall sound structure. So does the music that, while incredible good, randomly changes and gets off and on. SK needs to review their sound tools.

* The inventory screen. It works much better than in other games like, for example, Mass Effect. But it is very ugly and bad designed. I mean, it feels like an entire screen of letters and numbers, and takes some hours to get used to. Furthermore Itīs far from an intuitive approach and is ugly.

* Watch out the balancing of the polarities and their permanent damage. They have caused multiple headaches over the Too Human community during our first 20 hours of game.

* The bonuses of the runes, weapons and so on (hybrid damage, etc.) need to be explained in any sheet of the menus, like the part of advanced combat that is in the main menu.

* This game needs some way to trade objects between your own characters.

* The most of the combat cool skills (ricochet, necrotize, etc.) start to appear after you have spent 70 or 80 hours with your character. Besides rewarding the hardcore player, Too Human needs to reward and surprise the casual player too.

* It would be nice if Too Human II improves animations in the cinematics and their lip sync. It would help them to feel more dramatic and credible.

* Concept art in Too Human is great. But in the process between the concept art and the final look of the textures, specially in the characters, objects, and some parts of the scenarios, something fails. The final look of the art in-game looks sometimes odd and ugly. The items drops are ugly and no consistent with the aesthetics of the first concept arts. The same can be said for most of the visual effects of the game. For example, I think there is a lot of artistic and human work behind all the type of ruiners, but then in-game the most look confusing and not very impressive (I loved that one in the first steps of the development of the game with the pistols shooting like wings, why the hell that is not in the final game?).

* Graphics. Too Human running at a real 30 fps would help this kind of game a lot. Polishing the graphic engine a bit could help part II to sell better (what a secret!), and charactersī hair and eyes graphics need a lot more of work on.

* It would be nice to add a run function in the controls. It could be clicking the left stick. I think this is essential for exploring such huge scenarios.

* Control scheme needs to be improved because often something rare happens controlling Baldur, and every sequel does so too!

* The game feels a little short, please 2 or 3 hours more for the next installment.

* Cyberspace is a good place for introducing new elements of exploration and storytelling ala Bioshock. Instead of audio tapes, it could be arcane texts explaining the ancient myths of nordic mythologies, so the player that is unaware of the myths behind the plot of Too Human could appreciate the depth behind the story. In cyberspace could appear other characters of the myths beyond the norns (like that squirrel whose name I donīt remember, for example).

* Although the narrative of Too Human is very good with its cutscenes, the overall experience feels like 3 hours of combat by level, and then a cutscene, I mean, fragmented. It would be better to implement storytelling more deeply into the gameplay. Like the first part of Hall of Heroes, or the first part of World Serpent. Make more use of the crows of Odin!

efebei
10-08-2008, 02:01 PM
Minor changes and other ideas:

* The transition between inventory screens feels a bit laggy, and making it faster would improve the experience a lot.

* In Too Human it takes a lot of time to get your character to level 50. With at least 5 different classes with 2 different alignments each one, is reasonable to reach level 50 at the end of the second walkthrough.

* The loot drop rate should be improved for rare items. It takes a lot to get the epics. Most players should get the full epic set with no more than 70-75 hours. As I said before, getting the epics of 3 characters out of the 10 possible (5 classes X 2 alignments) takes now about 300 – 450 hours. And it is too much.

* Asgard feels an empty place. There is people but their routines are ridiculous. Furthermore is boring to walk around with so little sub-quests.

* The in-game dialogues in Asgard should be improved. In real life, when I talk to other or someone talks with me, I usually look at them without stretching my armīs muscles, and they do it too.

* The famous valkyrie scene. Well, I think most of the people that criticizes it does it because Too Human has so many flaws that they assume criticism like a sport :(. I donīt think is a bad penalty, but it would be nice if that animation and its visual effects get improved. Furthermore, instead a single one animation, it could be replaced by an intelligent system that could throw at your dead body 2 or 3 valkyries to clean off the enemies in the area surrounding your dead body from enemies, meanwhile another one carries you to Valhalla (when you are surrounded); or one single valkyrie if your dead body is alone or with 1 or 2 enemies. These animations should be showed with different cinematic camera angles to avoid monotony from one dead to another and to instilling solemnity.

* One thing that should improve the experience of cyberspace is to add fauna into that world. Imagine, you enter cyberspace and the first you see is a bird alight on a branch at forefront, and behind Baldur near the well. Adding a few animals should help to feel cyberspace more alive and comfortable.

* Fighting a machine is not as cool as fighting something alive. You know, there is no blood, no pain, etc. Something that could help Too Human to feel more badass is to implement physics to let the machines be dismembered in combat, generating sparks in each hit, and that kind of stuff. I know this requires a lot of technology and programming for the tools, but it could be an idea to implement in the third part of the trilogy!

* Put the information about charm quests in the main HUD, so I donīt have to navigate through the equipment screens whenever I want to know how my charms are progressing. And other thing that is more important, two charm slots is insufficient. Most people donīt equip their completed charms until they are at level 50, so level 1 and level 2 charms are useless. More slots, please.

* If the cinematic camera is well balanced and improved in the next game I think It will not be necessary to implement the several camera settings Too Human has (7 or 8 different types, I remember). Anyway, the game should remember camera settings for each player.


And... I think thatīs all!:D

Redenbacher09
10-08-2008, 02:55 PM
I agree with many of these ideas. I think Too Human has un"god"ly amounts of potential. I love the entire concept, the gameplay, everything. However, many of the above ideas should not go overlooked.

A few comments I have on these ideas:

Cyberspace would be nice to have some kind of fauna, as it does represent the world as it once was. Not extreme, just a bird here and there, maybe a rare deer scampering across. It would also be nice if it felt more open. Right now, cyberspace feels like I'm being forced down a specific corridor. In essence I think it should have the feeling of wide open spaces and liveliness, a complete opposite of the real world.

As a protector of the human race, the human race should be able to make requests of the gods. Mini quests in Asgard is a great idea. Rescuing family members, securing lost items, all for unique armor and weapon rewards. Even chain quests for epics are an idea.

I don't agree with adding more charm slots. More charm inventory capacity, yes. More charm slots would be overkill. 3 graviton pulse charms? Come on now! What about having separate areas to place charms:

3 slots for charms in progress: These are charms you are trying to complete the quests for, they are not active otherwise and you do not get bonuses.

2 active slots: These are charms that are completed. You receive bonuses for these charms but you cannot complete quests for charms in these slots if incomplete.

25 total charm inventory.


That's my 2 cents :)

efebei
10-08-2008, 03:35 PM
I don't agree with adding more charm slots. More charm inventory capacity, yes. More charm slots would be overkill. 3 graviton pulse charms? Come on now! What about having separate areas to place charms:

3 slots for charms in progress: These are charms you are trying to complete the quests for, they are not active otherwise and you do not get bonuses.

2 active slots: These are charms that are completed. You receive bonuses for these charms but you cannot complete quests for charms in these slots if incomplete.

25 total charm inventory.


That's my 2 cents :)[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah, that sounds good. I didnīt extend myself on this point because my text was encyclopedic.

Citizen Mike
10-08-2008, 06:06 PM
Hi guys, this is all good stuff. This added to the rumors of the changes from the up coming update and DLC..... makes the games potential through the roof.

One thing I would like to see is: A more organic feel to Balder when running and walking around. He looks and feels to much like a robot.

Cheers, Mike

efebei
10-08-2008, 07:06 PM
Hi guys, this is all good stuff. This added to the rumors of the changes from the up coming update and DLC..... makes the games potential through the roof.

One thing I would like to see is: A more organic feel to Balder when running and walking around. He looks and feels to much like a robot.

Cheers, Mike

Totally agree. I posted on Toohuman.net v. 3.0 your argument 8 or 10 months ago, and Dennis Dyack said the animations were under control... Ąouch! finally it seems that they werenīt.

Citizen Mike
10-08-2008, 09:14 PM
I loved this game and I hope the Devs are listening.

Cheers, Mike

RedHerb
10-08-2008, 10:41 PM
hmmm, a new camera system? how would that work? with the combat and movement on both sticks already...

from an interveiw i heard (1up or ign i forget) ages ago, dennis talked about the camera. their idea was to free up the controls so that the player only had to focus on playing the game and not re positioning the camera all time.

it is nice idea, and i think most of the time the game pulls it off. but the problem is it goes against the gaming grain, its not a concept that we are use to in action oriented games.

because we are so use to controlling the camera in-game its hard and frustrating sometimes to not look where we want to look and not repositioning to a what may seem to be a more advantageous camera angle. which is why i keep pressing LB, which faults the whole idea of the player not worry about the camera, cause i am!

However, i agree about the cyberspace parts, they are boring, even if they are meant to give you a break from the combat, i wish they could have been more then just running around looking for treasure chests.

efebei
10-09-2008, 03:21 PM
hmmm, a new camera system? how would that work? with the combat and movement on both sticks already...

from an interveiw i heard (1up or ign i forget) ages ago, dennis talked about the camera. their idea was to free up the controls so that the player only had to focus on playing the game and not re positioning the camera all time.

it is nice idea, and i think most of the time the game pulls it off. but the problem is it goes against the gaming grain, its not a concept that we are use to in action oriented games.

because we are so use to controlling the camera in-game its hard and frustrating sometimes to not look where we want to look and not repositioning to a what may seem to be a more advantageous camera angle. which is why i keep pressing LB, which faults the whole idea of the player not worry about the camera, cause i am!


I only suggest to fix te camera issues (they are a few important ones) and enhance the cinematic presentation. It would be counterproductive to change the entire camera system.

Draegloth187
10-09-2008, 03:35 PM
I agree with the charms, but i'd like to play with the idea of adding more.

What about adding a system where your only allowed 2 weapon charms and 1 armor charm. Something like that.

...umm maybe u can only equip 2 epic charms and other one has to be a weaker type.



Just an idea. Throwing it out there to see what others think.