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View Full Version : A response to Yahtzee...



smitty
10-02-2008, 06:37 PM
If you do choose to read this, thanks--my apologies for most of the snarkiness, but it's impossible to respond to the tone of your reviews without just a bit or the occasional mound of it. Also, while I won't attempt to sell you on the game, as that's SK's job & something they failed miserably at, I have authored an overly-long FAQ posted at gamefaqs.com which explains the sensible logic behind some of the design - particularly where the camera is concerned. I also wanted to add that you're spot-on about the Prince of Persia franchise, which is why I'm surprised you didn't find more of value in Too Human.

The reason I'm writing this to you specifically, even though it could apply to a majority of the negative reviews out there, is because I expected for you to be able to find something different to complain about; but instead you seemed to have put on the "I'm a casual gamer renting this for a weekend..." hat and promptly began to complain about the same ol' stuff as every other reviewer when the game was more difficult than you expected.

While Silicon Knights deserves to be bashed for their failure to sell the gamer on the mechanics and its design philosophy of "throw the gamer to the wolves" when it comes to introducing novel combat mechanics that are core to the game, a majority of the reviewers are to blame as well for being lazy twats that could be bothered to wrap their heads around something that wasn't 3rd person action game #58,000,000,000.

While us mere-mortals don't expect reviewers to be gaming gods, we do expect for you to attempt proficiency at a game before tossing it on the heap--mainly because that's what you're paid to do. Reading reviews written by people too lazy to master the basics of an RPG skill set one day and a FPS weapon selection the next would just lead to a chorus of whine, which is exactly what Too Human received.

I'm curious about your camera complaint, as I'm wondering what 3rd person point of view game with a non-fixed camera you would actually like. You use basically the same complaint in both your Ninja Gaiden and Too Human review that the camera would be off staring at a random object while you're getting buggered off screen; so this seems to be a problem more endemic to any game that takes camera management out of the control of the player; so my question is whether there is a 3rd person point-of-view game with good camera A.I. in your book?

If there isn't a game that can be used as a bench-mark, then it would seem that your game-design philosophy states that either the camera must be fixed a'la God of War or that every bit of camera movement must be controlled by the player or it's broken, then mention that when you critique a game.

I do have to make a concession on the camera thou'. I admit that when I listened to some of the developer interviews explaining the camera behavior, it made logical sense and allowed me to anticipate and adjust to most of the problems I encountered... But since Silicon Knights couldn't be arsed to explain it in the game, they deserve a fair amount of the venom for not bothering to inform anyone but their rabid fan base about the logic behind their design.

Since the controls were integral to your camera complaint, because it didn't use the industry standard for a 3rd person game, I'll say that I flat-out disagree with you. As I haven't played Devil May Cry, I'll use Ninja Gaiden as a counter-point for why the melee combat in Too Human is a viable alternative.

In Ninja Gaiden, if you screw up the timing of one button press during one attack animation out of 15 button press combination, then it's a half-your-health bar buggering for you. This leads, at least for me and possibly other non-gaming gods, to ignoring half of the game's combo's for the five or so that I can pull of consistently.

In Too Human, the replacement of precision button-mashing with loose stick-twiddling means that while I may not hit the exact guy I was aiming for when I made myself a guided melee-missile, I hit something. And I usually have enough time to adjust my plan of attack accordingly; instead of looking at the screen going "Oh crap..." as 6 different bad-guys take advantage of the three frames of animation opening from a mis-pressed button to bugger my character senseless...

Thou' there is one move in Too Human that does suffer from this "punishing you for bad timing" problem and that is the "ranged-melee weapon attack" that requires you to press both sticks in the same direction; which is prone to an imperceptible timing mistake. So instead of sending out a devastating-if-slow projectile, this results in sending you careening towards the exploding bastard you were trying to avoid with a ranged attack in the first place... The fact that you didn't play the game enough to take the piss out of this makes me wonder how much time you put into it prior to your review.

You and every other reviewer bashing this game complained about the unskipable Valkyrie-Ride and its frequency, going so far as to state that anyone who defended this deserved immediate removal from the gene-pool. I'm going to state that the game should have punished the reviewers much more harshly, possibly "Art of Theft" harshly, by having you start the stage or section over after a death setting you back further, with the hordes respawned, than the retail copy; on the hope that there's some sort of rule that reviewers that don't bother to develop the skills to complete a game aren't allowed to write about it.

As it stands, it seems like you and every other reviewer powered your way through the game once with the respawn system and declared that it was broken. A high incidence of character mortality usually indicates two things, either the game is poorly designed and cheap, a'la "Ghouls'n'Ghosts or "BattleToads", or that the player can't be arsed to learn the combat mechanics. As I can make it through a stage with an average of one death, I'd say that the problem is with the reviewer more so than the game.

Too Human could be accused of having a "designed for the hard core" learning curve that you discussed in your Ninja Gaiden review; as I do remember the 4-5 hours after hitting lvl 50 that it took me to learn why the developers put in things like a "ranged melee attack" and that my combo meter/magic bar was there to be used to clear the screen instead of dropping from 3 to zero because I was being miserly with it while the hordes were pillaging my bum. However, Silicon's Knight's failure to make the game "pick-up&play" does not mean that they produced a bad game.

A major factor that you cover is that melee combat feels like molasses and that the ranged combat feels like your weapons were loaded with spit wads... I'll deal with the melee combat issue first, by asking did you note that this game had a metric ton of Diablo style loot, and that one of the innumerable bonuses was to "Attack Speed", or that also like Diablo it had skill-paths that also grant bonuses to "Attack Speed"? Or did you notice that as a part of your death penalty, in addition to the Valkyrie-ride, that your combo-meter was reset to zero & that when this number was greater than zero that you gain a boost to several combat related attributes?

Moving on from melee, ranged combat does feel like an add-on for most classes, something that might soften up the hordes a bit before you're forced to go to melee. However, if you looked at the class selection screen, there was a choice, the commando, that was, as the game put it "a master of Stand-off methods of warfare" and had had 5 of those little blue blocks under ballistics... Which probably explains the You-Tube videos show tearing apart leader class units in under 4 seconds in a withering hail of gunfire. Now I grant you that his melee attacks feel like he might as well be using a wiffel-bat, but if you wanted gun fire - then play the class that uses guns good.

While the merits of basing combat effectiveness on the ability to find loot & stay alive without spamming your special abilities are debatable; if a player feels that his Baldur is not combat effective in a specific area, then it's either because you're wearing the wrong gear, didn't know how to use your skills, or you're class isn't suited to your play style... Or were a reviewer, that when confronted with something that had a learning curve, decided that they were going to flick boogers at it instead while laughing at the rest of use about the fact that they get paid to play video-games all day.

The game's philosophy that combat is the only source of "combo a.k.a. mana", health, and combat effectiveness touches on a sore point for even the fans of the game. Which you did note, was the exploding Kamikazes and their incurable "unless you play the healer class" status effects that are only mitigatible in two ways: (1) by killing and looting so quickly that you have piles of health coming to you, (2) rolling around like an idiot for a however long the interminable effects--which while "stop-drop-&roll" might make sense for being set on fire, it is completely retarded when applied to poison damage.
-Cont-

smitty
10-02-2008, 06:37 PM
While having to endure status ailments might have made sense when you're in a 4 person party with one healer, as originally planned, it is close to broken for both the single player and limited multi-player that the game shipped with. While it was a legitimate design decision to not allow the player to quaff a cubic-kiloliter of some health restoring version of Red Bull to power their way through a battle, it is a bit of a dick move punishing the player with a cheap death because they couldn't get to the next battle fast enough to outlast a status effect or had the random chances at health give you money instead.

One complaint that made me wonder if you were playing the same game as the rest of us was the complaint about the auto-targeting system. I've found that when those huge hammer or grenade firing trolls appear, I can't get my weapon to *not* aim at them, even when I want to shoot the kamikaze weenie that's about to give the gift that keeps on giving, DoT.


When prioritizing targets of similar dangerousness, I've had trouble in that the target system vacillates between being is either locked down to on target or so slippery that I can aim at the exploding bastard in the middle of the pack because the auto-targeting decides that I need to spray bullets like a windshield-wiper. Though I don't have a problem when playing the aforementioned Commando because nothing lives long enough to pose much of a threat anyway.

The last combat related complaint you mentioned is that Baldur likes to leisurely stroll into combat and cannot walk backwards faster than a robotic killing machine. While there is some truth to this as Baldur can literally roll across a stage faster than he can jog across it; this a game about combat, not a sci-fi rendering of children's "tag-your-it"; unless you wanted to play the wussy-mythological version of Baldur that would be truer to the source material. If you want to avoid the hordes you should have found a build that can effectively use a gun or figured out that Air-combat literally puts you above the masses.

This puts me at the crux of my irritation with your review, and that is you seem to resent any play mechanic that required you to leave the comfort of your previous experience, and didn't bother to even mention the RPG elements making it seem as if you're bashing the game because you weren't in the mood to be bothered by any of its depth, innovation, and challenge after determining that the plot wasn't to your liking.

I found this disappointing because I'd much rather of had your review comment on the unlikely collision of MMO style uber-rare loot drop reward system colliding with a twitch action game than watch you produce a wittier version of what every other reviewer was saying.

scottyd
10-02-2008, 08:32 PM
I think the reason Yahtzee failed to mention the RPG element is because there is none.

Good post though.

Laonar
10-03-2008, 06:06 PM
There is none? So leveling your character and putting skill points and equiping better equipment is not rpg style? Its not hardcore rpg.. neither was diablo but they still have rpg qualities. Too human is more of a action/rpg for me, while diablo2 was a point and click rpg.

Freaking awesome review.

Shafted
10-03-2008, 07:37 PM
Good post.

Vespasian
10-03-2008, 09:21 PM
Well thought out review.

I prefer Yahtzee's point of view, though. Unfortunately for Silicon Knights, apparently most gamers in general agree with Yahtzee as well.

f00kingpwnage
10-04-2008, 07:00 AM
what most people fail to see is alot of things went wrong for them but they still pulled through with a kick ****ing *** game.
i dont think we can critisize them until the 3rd one becuase like ive stated before its the 1st in a trilogy and if you think about it its a tester in a way becuase theyr doing what not many people do and actually talking and lisning to the fans on a forum to find out what to change and what was good and so on
..yes there are bugs and glitches but lets face it halo 1 had glitches it was fun but **** looking and they kind of pulled through and delivered with number 3.
i say just waite and give SK a chance cos to me they show a hugggge ammount of care for the game and gamers its not some loosely made story it fits together and flows great and game play is smooth too so i dont see why evryones so quick to jump the hate-wagon..

better?

Vespasian
10-04-2008, 03:53 PM
what most people fail to see is alot of things went wrong for them but they still pulled through with a kick ****ing *** game. i dont think we can critisize them until the 3rd one becuase like ive stated before its the 1st in a trilohy and if you think about it its a tester in a way becuase theyr doing what not many people do and actually talking and lisning to the fans on a forum to find out what to change and what was good and so on..yes there are bugs and glitches but lets face it halo 1 had glitches it was fun but **** looking and they kind of pulled through and delivered with number 3... i say just waite and give SK a chance cos to me they show a hugggge ammount of care for the game and gamers its not some loosely made story it fits together and flows great and game play is smooth too so i dont see why evryones so quick to jump the hate-wagon..

http://threadbombing.com/data/media/2/maxwell_smart__confused.gif

tsolless
10-04-2008, 04:06 PM
what most people fail to see is alot of things went wrong for them but they still pulled through with a kick ****ing *** game. i dont think we can critisize them until the 3rd one becuase like ive stated before its the 1st in a trilohy and if you think about it its a tester in a way becuase theyr doing what not many people do and actually talking and lisning to the fans on a forum to find out what to change and what was good and so on..yes there are bugs and glitches but lets face it halo 1 had glitches it was fun but **** looking and they kind of pulled through and delivered with number 3... i say just waite and give SK a chance cos to me they show a hugggge ammount of care for the game and gamers its not some loosely made story it fits together and flows great and game play is smooth too so i dont see why evryones so quick to jump the hate-wagon..

*wall of text*

If English is your first language please, for the love of whatever deity or lack thereof you follow, please try to make your sentences coherent.

f00kingpwnage
10-04-2008, 04:27 PM
i got kicked out of schol so excuse my grammer and english skills

tsolless
10-04-2008, 04:36 PM
Ah... Well there was no offense intended so I hope you aren't offended.

f00kingpwnage
10-04-2008, 05:54 PM
haha i know lol

TheMuffinMan99
10-05-2008, 01:22 AM
While having to endure status ailments might have made sense when you're in a 4 person party with one healer, as originally planned, it is close to broken for both the single player and limited multi-player that the game shipped with. While it was a legitimate design decision to not allow the player to quaff a cubic-kiloliter of some health restoring version of Red Bull to power their way through a battle, it is a bit of a dick move punishing the player with a cheap death because they couldn't get to the next battle fast enough to outlast a status effect or had the random chances at health give you money instead.

One complaint that made me wonder if you were playing the same game as the rest of us was the complaint about the auto-targeting system. I've found that when those huge hammer or grenade firing trolls appear, I can't get my weapon to *not* aim at them, even when I want to shoot the kamikaze weenie that's about to give the gift that keeps on giving, DoT.


I totally agree and I've been posting about this exact point for a while now and this hits the nail on the head. The poison effect in Helheim lasts entirely too long and worse if the fact that one drops almost every fight so you spend most of your time playing like a commando no matter which class.

While I understand that they put a LOT of time and effort into the commando class which is obvious by the commando skill tree video they posted and the commando seems to be the most powerful with most of the game geared towards its playstyle.

Don't get me wrong I understand the need for polarity enemies and I'm glad they're in the game just do us a favor and make a way for the melee class to kill them with melee without me getting my Berzerker's face raped off for the next 5 minutes by an incurable and tiresome DoT.

Freezing Sniper Trolls, Sniper Elves, and Rocket Goblins simply don't need to exist, seriously, they're just cheap and don't add strategy to the game they just make me want to see the programmers choke to death in a pool of their own blood and fecal matter.

Those types don't need to exist because no matter which class you play being frozen in place for 30 seconds and just as you are about to come out of it they decide then is the best moment to finally land the killing blow and waste more of your time with the Valkyrie
death scene.

Polarity trolls are good just don't make the damn things resistant to ballistics AND damage you if you mount and kill them. This happened with all four trolls around a well in the Ice Forest with my Berserker and a Commando. The commando was useless and so was I and guess what watching yourself die from something you know should Never happen in any game is bad for the gamer And the developers.

I really don't regard ZP as a real game reviewer since he is just mostly for laughs so if you watched it don't take it personal he was just trying to be funny IMO and if not he is just another *** with the I.Q of Opie from Family Guy. He's probably still a virgin. ;D

I do completely disagree with almost everything he said in the gameflaws thing though with the Valkyrie screen being completely annoying (which I get why they did it but sometimes I feel like it's a slap in the face on top of a cheap death, on top of a repair bill)

I agree with you Smitty when you posted that the Fierce attack does tend do rape my Berserker more times than it gets me out of a jam and that does feel in need of a little tweaking to completely broken depending on the amount of BS involved with the death.

Beyond Birthday
10-05-2008, 12:40 PM
Yahtzee....pfft.

While reviews are mostly taken into consideration, because they are NOT biased.....yahtzee has managed to reach the epitome of biased.

he puts too much of himself into all of his reviews, and while it's somewhat funny...it defeats the purpose of going over the game in the first place.

yahtzee has the most fanatic following of idiots i've ever seen, they take his word as though it were law.

But at the end of the day, i can't take his reviews seriously and use his devout followers as a good excuse to laugh at humanity :D hehe

KefkaForKing
10-11-2008, 01:06 PM
http://threadbombing.com/data/media/2/maxwell_smart__confused.gif

Hahaha where do you get these pics vesp? Made me laugh, thanks :)

TheMuffinMan99
10-12-2008, 03:21 AM
Yahtzee....pfft.

While reviews are mostly taken into consideration, because they are NOT biased.....yahtzee has managed to reach the epitome of biased.

he puts too much of himself into all of his reviews, and while it's somewhat funny...it defeats the purpose of going over the game in the first place.

yahtzee has the most fanatic following of idiots i've ever seen, they take his word as though it were law.

But at the end of the day, i can't take his reviews seriously and use his devout followers as a good excuse to laugh at humanity :D hehe

Individual people are generally smart, however group them up or take them out of their predetermined schedule they turn into cattle.

I have 0 hope for humanity and generally don't like people unless I spend more than an hour getting to know them, even then it's dicey.

I agree with what you said about people following him like some sort of god, it's actually quite disturbing how far they take it and how seriously for that matter. Anyone who listens to any of his reviews and takes them for anything more than a comedy sketch shouldn't play games IMO.

marcwagz
11-01-2008, 08:24 PM
I seriously hope yahtzee's reviews are not serious, I always thought they were jokes.

Listening to his halo 3 review was this...

"I havnt played halo 1 or 2 so I dont understand halo 3's story about master chef and the retarded midgets."
Literally, that was the whole basis of his review. He is basically a joke.

Vespasian
11-02-2008, 01:46 AM
Anyone who listens to any of his reviews and takes them for anything more than a comedy sketch shouldn't play games IMO.

Anyone who dares defy the teachings of Yahtzee shouldn't play games, IMO.

A little advice: don't tell people what you would have them do and not do, as if you actually had a say in the matter. You don't, luckily for everyone else. I apologize if this seems overly hostile, but I am somewhat weary of the hundreds of "RandomForumGuy117" posting his Grand Proclamations of what the world would be like under his total control. That's what the Rant and Rave section is for.

Eleazar
11-02-2008, 01:58 AM
Yahtzee isn't to be taken serious. He is there to make fun of everything that isn't absolutely perfect, and although I have never talked to him I doubt he believes his reviews should be taken serious. He isn't out to make an smart logical review, but an overracting comedy. I'm thinking he started the series just to make fun of those who play a game and can't find one thing good about it. The only time he gives a good review is when he absolutely loves the game like his mother.

Beyond Birthday
11-02-2008, 02:14 AM
The only game he didn't have anything negative to say about was Portal.

And he started doing the series when he lost his job, broke up with his girlfriend, etc.

Spite =/= good reviews.

Vespasian
11-02-2008, 02:15 AM
Yahtzee isn't to be taken serious. He is there to make fun of everything that isn't absolutely perfect, and although I have never talked to him I doubt he believes his reviews should be taken serious. He isn't out to make an smart logical review, but an overracting comedy. I'm thinking he started the series just to make fun of those who play a game and can't find one thing good about it. The only time he gives a good review is when he absolutely loves the game like his mother.

So, any particular reason you're describing your opinion as undeniable, objective fact, or is it just more fun that way? :D

Beyond, he also liked COD4. But then again, who doesn't? Hahah. (well, other than a few people on the internet. And Halo kids. They don't count.)

Beyond Birthday
11-02-2008, 02:29 AM
(I actually hate Call of Duty, and i'm sick of Halo.

I'm really just sick of shooters in general)

And i know this is a petty reason to dislike yahtzee, but i hate his voice....if i could catch his sound waves and turn them into some sort of rope, i would strangle him with them :p

Bipolar Bear
11-03-2008, 05:40 AM
(I actually hate Call of Duty, and i'm sick of Halo.

I'm really just sick of shooters in general)

And i know this is a petty reason to dislike yahtzee, but i hate his voice....if i could catch his sound waves and turn them into some sort of rope, i would strangle him with them :p
You hate Call of Duty? You're not human! Everyone loves Call of Duty. We need a medic in here stat!

Beyond Birthday
11-03-2008, 05:41 AM
But i'm just sick of pointing and pulling a trigger :(

That's all you do in that game.

Bipolar Bear
11-03-2008, 05:44 AM
Blasphemy! You can also use strategies such as playing hardcore and knifing your friend in the back, or planting claymores and luring enemies towards their impending doom.

Beyond Birthday
11-03-2008, 05:46 AM
They aren't satisfying when most Call of duty players aren't the brightest bulb in the picnic basket :(




(haha)

Bipolar Bear
11-03-2008, 05:47 AM
Call of Duty 4 blew all the previous games in the series away. I believe it was made by a different developer than all the others.

Beyond Birthday
11-03-2008, 05:48 AM
Are you just posting so your name is everywhere in the forum index? :p

Bipolar Bear
11-03-2008, 05:49 AM
Who me? No...... >.>

Beyond Birthday
11-03-2008, 05:51 AM
You can't lie to me!

I know how these things work, since i strive for the exact same thing :D

anyway, let's get back on topic, shall we? :p

iron
11-03-2008, 05:13 PM
I know how these things work, since i strive for the exact same thing :D


But I'm the only one who ever succeeded. :p

Eleazar
11-04-2008, 01:18 PM
Call of Duty 4 blew all the previous games in the series away. I believe it was made by a different developer than all the others.


Actually Infinite Ward also made COD2. The only reason it was better than any of the others was because it was set in WW2. It's still a mediocre game in my opinion.

SamTheSlightlyGood
11-04-2008, 01:48 PM
I loved COD2, but what happened was that a different developer made COD3.

The difference was a MUCH more linear gameplay (which doesn't even seem that possible), and repetitiveness that got boring extremely fast.

It was just a worst game.

Also, there was no kill-cam (Dun dun dun)

iron
11-04-2008, 02:02 PM
Also, there was no kill-cam (Dun dun dun)

So, hardcore mode? :p

SamTheSlightlyGood
11-04-2008, 02:03 PM
I don't play hardcore that much...so it doesn't have a kill-cam?

iron
11-04-2008, 02:14 PM
No kill cam. No radar unless you get a UAV. Extra bullet damage so it only takes one hit to kill; even with faggurnaut.

SamTheSlightlyGood
11-04-2008, 02:22 PM
Oh my, that sounds...
Perfect for ninjas.

iron
11-04-2008, 02:25 PM
Yeah. Silence gun + UAV jammer is a highly used combo. Hell, 90% of the people use UAV jammer even without the silencer.

Eleazar
11-04-2008, 02:36 PM
I hate the kill cam. I don't want people to know where I was when I killed them. The helicopter is the worst though. It completely throws off the balance ofthe game.

SamTheSlightlyGood
11-04-2008, 02:37 PM
COD5 has dogs instead of helicopters.

iron
11-04-2008, 02:48 PM
I like the helicopter. I enjoy getting 2-3 of them a game. ;)

If you have a halfway decent team you can usually kill the 'copter in less than a minute.

SamTheSlightlyGood
11-04-2008, 02:49 PM
Dogs > Helicopters.
A squad of dogs could take down an apache in less than a minute.

iron
11-04-2008, 06:15 PM
Um, not if its actually in the air.

SamTheSlightlyGood
11-04-2008, 06:25 PM
Yes they could.
Atleast the dogs in COD5 could.

iron
11-04-2008, 06:33 PM
So they are magic flying dogs? :o

TheMuffinMan99
11-04-2008, 09:12 PM
No kill cam. No radar unless you get a UAV. Extra bullet damage so it only takes one hit to kill; even with faggurnaut.

LMAO Faggurnaut classic man classic

iron
11-04-2008, 09:14 PM
Well I don't like that my head shots with the m40 don't kill them. Its kinda annoying.

TheMuffinMan99
11-04-2008, 09:18 PM
totally understood, my buddy usually gets host so he will sit in the start point with claymores everywhere and wait with the sniper and after kill 1 he leaves the game.

Then comes the trash talking. I find this absolutely hilarious, just like betraying people in the halo 3 grifball match where you can't get booted.

iron
11-04-2008, 09:19 PM
Why would he do that? For a long win/loss streak?

TheMuffinMan99
11-04-2008, 09:21 PM
Mostly because you get the annoying little kids who think they're the greatest and want to talk crap to their own team.

Sometimes just for fun though, if the team is cool I'll help them out of corse. It is fun when they get really angry over an extra experience point though.

More fun than playing the game right sometimes.

iron
11-04-2008, 09:23 PM
Eh, I just play to get my rank up. Once I hit the final rank/prestige I may stop caring.

TheMuffinMan99
11-04-2008, 09:33 PM
I don't care about rank but a lot of people do, and they're the people I love to betray because they take it personal. Like in the MLG playlist, I've been threatened with having my xbox hacked for it (still waiting for it)

no follow through though because it's not worth getting caught and having to pay me for the court costs with their college money.

Maybe I'm just a douche I dunno judge me how you will.

iron
11-04-2008, 09:35 PM
I like MLG. Too bad I don't play Halo anymore. :(

TheMuffinMan99
11-04-2008, 09:38 PM
the MLG ruined the game for me too many people take that entirely too personally.

I perfer the TH anyway but games are fading fast from what I want to do with my free time though.