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View Full Version : Most Infuriating Game I Enjoy Playing



DFS3
09-18-2008, 01:56 AM
Too Human is probably the most consistently frustrating game that keeps me coming back to play again (possibly the most frustrating game I've ever played, period). I guess that means that at its core, there's a really amazing game hidden somewhere. This will probably be a litany of things that make me mad about this game, so if you don't care to read it consider yourself warned.

I think the game is really beautiful to look at in most respects, and the central concept of the game and the control scheme are really brilliant. The dialogue is a bit lame, but the cybernetic take on Norse gods is really interesting in spite of it. I like the length of the levels, contrary to what many others feel, because it really feels epic. I love that you don't have to go to a shop to sell items or gather things to craft gear because it keeps you playing.

However, this game needed a lot more play-testing. Plenty of people (reviewers and others) have griped about the ridiculous valkyrie and frequent death. Although I almost never die any more after learning how to play my character strategically (I've got all the unbeatable achievements), the valkyrie is still as much of a buzzkill on those rare deaths as it was at the start. It was so annoying that early on I almost gave up on the game entirely, though I'm glad I didn't. The death is one major flaw that can essentially be worked around; unfortunately, it's probably the only one. I've seen this defended as being no worse or different from losing XP or gold in other games, but in those other games you can use potions or healing spells to avoid dying.

On a related note, I find the end-game is less fun to play than leveling since at 50 there seems to be a constant flood of enemies that give you status ailments/debuffs. Thankfully my 50 is a BE so I can remove them, but it still sucks to constantly be using my combo meter to remove debuffs. I can't see myself having the patience to deal with it on my commando or zerker if I level them to 50.

I really can't comprehend the thought process that went into the camera. I can deal with not being able to swivel the camera since most of the time I want it simply to follow me anyway, but the way the camera will swing around to focus on something pretty in the background instead of your character is just baffling to me. It's honestly the worst game camera I've seen since Mario 64, and probably even worse than Mario 64's since you can't move this camera at all.

Some of the things I hope to see fixed in addition to the above if there is a sequel (something I'm unsure of given the critically poor reception of the game) are:

-The ability to switch ammo types on ranged weapons so you don't have to give up a weapon's runes to get a different ammo type.
-A ranged lock system that works properly, including ballistic lock dropping off a dead target immediately and automatically, pistols that don't randomly lock onto non-existent targets, and secondary attacks (i.e. grenades) that shoot the direction you are facing rather than suddenly choosing a random target after firing.
-Some kind of targeting priority so that when you jump to melee juggle you don't randomly redirect mid-air-dash to a target on the ground instead of the target in the air.
-Enemies that don't cluster directly beneath you in the air so that when you fall down you get stuck on their heads and lose your combo.
-More work on the stick tilt so that you don't have to tap your stick 15 times to slide instead of swinging your sword in place feeling like a fool.
-More inventory space for charms and/or the ability to complete charm objectives without having them in the active slot so you don't have to constantly micro-manage your charms to actually get them done.
-A sorting function for charms and runes such that you can cycle through options to sort by degree of completion, types of bonuses (for runes) or quests (for charms), or by symbol.
-The ability to equip items in cyberspace so you can manage runes and charms without having to lose drops. If you can take items out of cyberspace into the real world, there is no reasonable story justification for not being able to manage your items in cyberspace.
-Some way to get rid of debuffs for all character types, even if it's a consumable system like other games have.
-The ability to skip ALL cut scenes that you have seen at least once before.
-The ability to mix up the skill trees. You shouldn't have to take 6 points in a crappy spider ability if you want a good battle cry. The different tiers should have level requirements rather than point-placement requirements.

Granted, I know the devs aren't sitting here browsing this forum for new ideas for the sequel, but if these things had been changed for the first game it would have been a really amazing game. As it is now, I won't buy a copy until it hits bargain pricing. I just am still stunned that so many of these obvious ideas never made it into the game, especially the combat issues which frankly seem to suffer from a severe lack of playtesting.

MADDGOAT
09-18-2008, 06:12 AM
I agree with a lot of your criticisms of the game. One thing I would like to see changed is rather than having the combo meter drop right back to 0 after a few seconds of not hitting a target having it decree slowly at first, then more quickly the longer time go by. My main problem with the combo meter is that that while sliding to a target Baldur will occassionally stop about half way because the target was lost (fell through the floor, jumped, changed direction). I really enjoy the game, but there are so many bugs that can be frustrating.

Maawdawg
09-18-2008, 08:42 AM
I think alot of your criticisms are certainly justified and I agree with most of them. There are a few I don't though.

"-A ranged lock system that works properly, including ballistic lock dropping off a dead target immediately and automatically"

This one is a balancing feature that is planned in the game so there is a penatly for extremely fast firing rates, wasting bullets in dead bodies. If you use pistols try pumping left trigger then right alternating to avoid it or just constanly rotate the stick towards the group of monsters you are currently targetting that should help you change quickly.

"-More work on the stick tilt so that you don't have to tap your stick 15 times to slide instead of swinging your sword in place feeling like a fool."

Before you try to slide at something check to see if the small blue recticle is below them that shows their level. If that is there you can slide to them. If it isn't they are out of your slide range and you will just swing at air.

"-The ability to mix up the skill trees. You shouldn't have to take 6 points in a crappy spider ability if you want a good battle cry. The different tiers should have level requirements rather than point-placement requirements."

This one is another balancing issue. The trees are balanced right now to keep gamelpay at a set difficulty basically. If you let people get too far into customization and let them choose any skill they want at certain level requirements they will be able to basically break the intended difficulty of the game. As an example, the defender laser is a very powerful spider and it is like that because the battlecry in that tree is useless in solo play. The trees are balanced against each other as spider+battlecry combinations for the most part. I think the character design is good right now. Sure, I could handle a bit more customization but I totally understand why it is the way it is. Letting people choose freely from the skill trees would create an absolute balancing nightmare.

Lykathea
09-18-2008, 10:24 AM
I guess I'll just never understand why the 15 second Valkyrie death animation is such a 'major' flaw, nor will I understand how the camera is objectively bad--it works perfect for me 90% of the time, and its interesting, cinematic angles in Standard mode really adds a visceral touch to the game's combat.

JeebusJunior
09-18-2008, 01:50 PM
I FULLY disagree with this point
"-Some way to get rid of debuffs for all character types, even if it's a consumable system like other games have."

I think you really need to consider the fact that this is a co-op game. Adding pots would COMPLETELY undermine 2 classes, the Bioengineer and the Defender. Their skills would be considered unneccesary thus leaving the game with 3 DPS classes.... hardly the game I fell in love with.

What use is a BE when I can self heal? Why have a Defender when I can remove my own status debuffs and Pot during battle?

If you are going to give solid feedback please make sure your perspective considers the game as a whole and not the fact that your solo zerker dies alot.

SolemnOaf
09-18-2008, 08:57 PM
With the complain about the camera. That short cut-scene where the floor falls away in 3-4, and no matter what direction you were going, the camera always comes back to your character facing you in the direction you just came from, not where you were trying to fight to. That drives me crazy every time. Then there's the belt, where when the camera gets stuck behind one of the moving crates and just starts swinging around spastically. Another thing that drives me crazy about the camera is IT NEVER SITS STILL. I was just trying to get the camera focused directly behind my character and it simply refused to do so, always swinging out to force me to attack on an angle. I guess I could choose the 'close' camera option but I don't like having the back of my character consume 40% of the viewing surface.

The rest of the stuff, however, like the gun-lock on and whatnot has nothing to do with the game's faulty mechanics, but with your faulty ability to learn them.

CorporateMesiah
09-19-2008, 04:05 PM
I love that you don't have to go to a shop to sell items or gather things to craft gear because it keeps you playing.
-Enemies that don't cluster directly beneath you in the air so that when you fall down you get stuck on their heads and lose your combo.
-More inventory space for charms and/or the ability to complete charm objectives without having them in the active slot so you don't have to constantly micro-manage your charms to actually get them done.
-The ability to equip items in cyberspace so you can manage runes and charms without having to lose drops. If you can take items out of cyberspace into the real world, there is no reasonable story justification for not being able to manage your items in cyberspace.
The enemies under you thing well, I rarely ever have to deal with that, but yet I'm not a champion either(I got one to lvl 10 for the jack of all trades achievement, then deleted), If you see a large group of goblins around a troll, don't air dash him until you fire a grenade first, the grenade will knock them back(Most of the time, o.o.)
This is pretty much all I agree with about the post, as most of the other stuff, I have no issue with at all as most of it is user correctable.

DFS3
09-23-2008, 11:56 PM
I think alot of your criticisms are certainly justified and I agree with most of them. There are a few I don't though.

"-A ranged lock system that works properly, including ballistic lock dropping off a dead target immediately and automatically"

This one is a balancing feature that is planned in the game so there is a penatly for extremely fast firing rates, wasting bullets in dead bodies. If you use pistols try pumping left trigger then right alternating to avoid it or just constanly rotate the stick towards the group of monsters you are currently targetting that should help you change quickly.


I try to avoid pistols. I prefer rifles first, then cannons when I can use them. The dead target was just a single example. I've had numerous occasions where my ballistic lock keeps snapping back to the same live target, which is especially frustrating when that target is a troll or a leader and I can't target the swarm of exploding goblins rushing towards me. I've basically stopped using primary fire for ranged attacks unless I absolutely have to and just use the rifle's secondary instead. There have been dozens of times when I try to shoot a grenade at some assault goblins and my lock snaps up to their missiles. I understand that there are balance considerations in the design of these things, but most of the flaws cannot be written off as deliberate balance decisions considering the state of the rest of the game.





"-More work on the stick tilt so that you don't have to tap your stick 15 times to slide instead of swinging your sword in place feeling like a fool."

Before you try to slide at something check to see if the small blue recticle is below them that shows their level. If that is there you can slide to them. If it isn't they are out of your slide range and you will just swing at air.


I'm talking about mobs that are within fierce range but just out of melee range (and I never upgrade my fierce range). Often times it is an elite mob that I have just juggled but didn't kill and it's landed right next to me. I don't die as a result of it or anything, but I almost always lose my hit count because of the few seconds delay.



"-The ability to mix up the skill trees. You shouldn't have to take 6 points in a crappy spider ability if you want a good battle cry. The different tiers should have level requirements rather than point-placement requirements."

This one is another balancing issue. The trees are balanced right now to keep gamelpay at a set difficulty basically. If you let people get too far into customization and let them choose any skill they want at certain level requirements they will be able to basically break the intended difficulty of the game. As an example, the defender laser is a very powerful spider and it is like that because the battlecry in that tree is useless in solo play. The trees are balanced against each other as spider+battlecry combinations for the most part. I think the character design is good right now. Sure, I could handle a bit more customization but I totally understand why it is the way it is. Letting people choose freely from the skill trees would create an absolute balancing nightmare.

You can call it a balancing issue, but I say it's a design flaw. Scaling difficulty back to fit a faulty skill system is lazy thinking. Fix the skill system so it works better, then up the difficulty accordingly to preserve the intended level of challenge. Deliberately limiting player choice is always a bad design mentality from my perspective.




I FULLY disagree with this point
"-Some way to get rid of debuffs for all character types, even if it's a consumable system like other games have."

I think you really need to consider the fact that this is a co-op game. Adding pots would COMPLETELY undermine 2 classes, the Bioengineer and the Defender. Their skills would be considered unneccesary thus leaving the game with 3 DPS classes.... hardly the game I fell in love with.

What use is a BE when I can self heal? Why have a Defender when I can remove my own status debuffs and Pot during battle?

If you are going to give solid feedback please make sure your perspective considers the game as a whole and not the fact that your solo zerker dies alot.

I never said anything about healing pots. I said a way to remove debuffs. All classes have a way of stopping creature damage, and that is to kill the creatures. BE can also heal itself. The problem with debuffs is that once you kill the creatures, you are still stuck with something damaging you, and it's something you can't kill to stop the damage. In a game where you cannot selectively heal, cannot regenerate health, and the sole healing item is unreliable and temporary, uncurable debuffs are a stupid stupid idea.


I guess I'll just never understand why the 15 second Valkyrie death animation is such a 'major' flaw, nor will I understand how the camera is objectively bad--it works perfect for me 90% of the time, and its interesting, cinematic angles in Standard mode really adds a visceral touch to the game's combat.

The valkyrie is a flaw because A) it's one of the very few cutscenes you can't skip, and B) it's a scene that has combat triggers, i.e. death. In a game where you cannot heal yourself, port to safety, etc, having a slow, unskippable cutscene every time you die is a pretty major flaw.

As for the camera, a 90% success rate is pretty awful in a game that you can potentially spend over a hundred hours in. That's 10 hours worth of game play flawed by a faulty camera. The lack of camera control isn't inherently bad, but when the camera doesn't work right and you have no means of correcting it, then that's a big problem. It's a giant pain in the *** to be walking down a path and have the camera keep swinging in front of Baldur. It's not only distracting to have sudden, unexpected changes in camera angle, but most of the time it prevents you from seeing where you're actually going. Walking towards the camera = bad design.



The rest of the stuff, however, like the gun-lock on and whatnot has nothing to do with the game's faulty mechanics, but with your faulty ability to learn them.

They absolutely have everything to do with faulty mechanics. The fact that people (myself included) have learned to compensate for them does not stop them from being faulty. It's like those people that drive around with colored tape over their broken tail lights, or basically anything else that you might jury rig; it functions properly, but it's still broken.


The enemies under you thing well, I rarely ever have to deal with that, but yet I'm not a champion either(I got one to lvl 10 for the jack of all trades achievement, then deleted), If you see a large group of goblins around a troll, don't air dash him until you fire a grenade first, the grenade will knock them back(Most of the time, o.o.)
This is pretty much all I agree with about the post, as most of the other stuff, I have no issue with at all as most of it is user correctable.

That would work if A) you are using a rifle, and B) the goblins are standing around the target you are air dashing before you air dash. But since an air finisher is one of the fastest ways to fill your combo meter, and it also happens to take a while to do, the mobs tend to group beneath you after you start the combo.