Franco-Swiss Particle accelerator

[Ghostbear_100]

So, the massive, 20-something mile long particle accelerator is set to activate for the first time next week. Some people are worried it will destroy the world (very low chance of that happening). Personally I wouldn't care if it would, because as least it would probably be quick.

Been looking forward to this for a long time, as it could potentially give clues as to the beginning of the universe, among other things.

Some scientists have suggested what we could learn when its activated could shake most of all known laws of physics.

Anyone else eagerly anticipating the results?

[Konvict8811]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

That is the Wiki link to the LHC (Large Hadron Accelerator). It is a 17 mile long particle accelarator built into the mountains underneath France and Switzerland which will shoot 2 protons to each other at VERY fast speeds. We are talking about near the speed of light (for some reason I want to so 99% the speed of light but I can't find that article anymore). When these protons collide, they will ,theoreticly, demonstrate the "big ban" in a controlled microscopic scale.

The theroy behind this project destroying the world is mostly due to the fear of it creating black holes. Although the scientists have mentoined the possibility of blackholes being created, they will be EXTREMELY small and so unstable they will only last for fractions of nano seconds. Black holes are based on an extreme amount of mass in a small singular point, two protons don't have enough mass or energy to truly make a black hole.

This experiment is very exciting and I personally can't wait to see what they discover.

[Ender]

They accelerate them to 99.9% speed of light. Pretty impressive. I'll be eagerly awaiting the detailed results of this test.

[Konvict8811]

They accelerate them to 99.9% speed of light. Pretty impressive. I'll be eagerly awaiting the detailed results of this test.

I knew it was something way up there. I have personally toured a linear particle accelarator which is only 3/4ths of a mile long, and that was damn impressive, I can't even imagine how this 17 mile one would be like to tour.

Can someone possible explain the theory behind Higgs Bosons? I only understand the very basics. . .

[Shadow_King_X]

The Higgs boson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boson) or BEH Mechanism, popularised as the "God Particle", is a hypothetical massive scalar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalar_field_theory) elementary particle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_particle) predicted to exist by the Standard Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model) of particle physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_physics); it is the only Standard Model particle not yet observed. Experimental observation would elucidate how otherwise massless elementary particles nevertheless manage to construct mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass) in matter. More specifically, the Higgs boson would explain the difference between the massless photon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon) and the relatively massive W and Z bosons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W_and_Z_bosons). Elementary particle masses, and the differences between electromagnetism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetism) (caused by the photon) and the weak force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_force) (caused by the W and Z bosons), are critical to many aspects of the structure of microscopic (and hence macroscopic) matter; thus, if it exists, the Higgs boson is an integral and pervasive component of the material world.
As of yet, no experiment has directly detected the existence of the Higgs boson, but this may change as the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider) at CERN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN) produces results. The Higgs mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_mechanism), which gives mass to vector bosons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_boson), was theorized in August 1964 by François Englert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Englert) and Robert Brout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Brout) ("boson scalaire"),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson#cite_note-0) in October of the same year by Peter Higgs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Higgs),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson#cite_note-1) working from the ideas of Philip Anderson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Anderson), and independently by G. S. Guralnik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Guralnik), C. R. Hagen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._R._Hagen), and T. W. B. Kibble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._W._B._Kibble)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson#cite_note-2) who worked out the results by the spring of 1963.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson#cite_note-3) The three papers written by Higgs, Brout, Englert, Guralnik, Hagen, and Kibble were each recognized as milestone papers by Physical Review Letters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Review_Letters) 50th anniversary celebration.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson#cite_note-4) Higgs proposed that the existence of a massive scalar particle could be a test of the theory, a remark added to his Physical Review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Review) letter[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson#cite_note-5) at the suggestion of the referee.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson#cite_note-6) Steven Weinberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Weinberg) and Abdus Salam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam) were the first to apply the Higgs mechanism to the electroweak symmetry breaking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroweak_symmetry_breaking). The electroweak theory predicts a neutral particle whose mass is not far from the W and Z bosons

[Konvict8811]

Lol, I have read that but all I understand is that it is a mystery "theorized" particle that actually gives mass to other elementery particles, but I dont understand the rest there, especially when they start talking about photons, W and Z bosons, as well as the weak force.

I guess I would understand more if I were a physics major. . . but screw that.
>.<

[Shadow_King_X]

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jaOONGqv-xW-JhBOWgiNCVi6Rsmw

Got to go with Hawking, sorry.

[Zecon]

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jaOONGqv-xW-JhBOWgiNCVi6Rsmw

Got to go with Hawking, sorry.

Bah, what does he know?
Oh, everything you say?
my bad

[Shadow_King_X]

Bah, what does he know?
Oh, everything you say?
my bad

HAHAHAHAHAHA. STEPHEN HAWKING KNOWING NOTHING OF BLACK HOLES.

You need to stop posting, please.....just don't talk anymore. Maybe you should look up Stephen Hawking and you'll have your answers.

[Konvict8811]

CERN, the operatiors of LHC, has sucessfully sent protons rull circle around the 17 mile accelerator. They will not "smash" any protons until October I think it is, and it will not be running at full power until next year.

I also saw a show on the History Channel yesterday which gives bais information behind the design, concept, thoeries, and science behind this, it might be worth it to watch if you guys are intereted.

[Vhako]

They accelerate them to 99.9% speed of light. Pretty impressive. I'll be eagerly awaiting the detailed results of this test.

I believe the figure was 99.999991% :p

Here is a YouTube link of Stephen Hawking explaining the fundamental principles behind what they are trying to achieve with the LHC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AG5RPOCjA&eurl=http://www.b3ta.com/links/Hawking_Lecture

Oh and the Higgs Boson can be thought of as treacle and every proton passes through it. The Higgs Boson will endow the passing protons with the same properties as the field e.g. Mass

[KefkaForKing]

I believe the figure was 99.999991% :p

Here is a YouTube link of Stephen Hawking explaining the fundamental principles behind what they are trying to achieve with the LHC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AG5RPOCjA&eurl=http://www.b3ta.com/links/Hawking_Lecture

Oh and the Higgs Boson can be thought of as treacle and every proton passes through it. The Higgs Boson will endow the passing protons with the same properties as the field e.g. Mass

That was a good talk by Hawking. Really explained things well, things are so much clearer, hehe.

All this particle accelerator stuff is amazing; I remember my physics teacher saying the CERN accelerator is the largest and most complex machine in the world. Anyone know if that's true?

I like these kind of trans-national/corporate projects that have no immediate practical use; 'tis good for the future of science and human knowledge :)

[Konvict8811]

That was a good talk by Hawking. Really explained things well, things are so much clearer, hehe.

All this particle accelerator stuff is amazing; I remember my physics teacher saying the CERN accelerator is the largest and most complex machine in the world. Anyone know if that's true?

I like these kind of trans-national/corporate projects that have no immediate practical use; 'tis good for the future of science and human knowledge :)

As far as we know it is the largest and most complex scientific instrument/machine in the world. I remember seeing somewhere that just one of the 4 or 5 experimental instruments has more iron in it then the Eiffel Tower. And it is freaking 17 miles long, the second longest one I think is only 4 miles, lol.

Either way it really is amazing stuff, I will have to watch that hawking interview tonight, when im not at work though.

[KefkaForKing]

As far as we know it is the largest and most complex scientific instrument/machine in the world. I remember seeing somewhere that just one of the 4 or 5 experimental instruments has more iron in it then the Eiffel Tower. And it is freaking 17 miles long, the second longest one I think is only 4 miles, lol.

Either way it really is amazing stuff, I will have to watch that hawking interview tonight, when im not at work though.

Oh, no. Watch it now. That's an order, Wolftrooper.

[Konvict8811]

Oh, no. Watch it now. That's an order, Wolftrooper.

Excuse me? I am a SENIOR member here. . . I out rank YOU!

Hahaha, well I might give it a quick view later, it is my last day at work so its not like I can get fired. . .

[Vhako]

I do throughly recommend watching it. It's... Insightful

[Vespasian]

Micro black holes are awesome things. Let's hope that Hawking radiation exists and gets rid of them, or else we might not even have a chance to play Far Cry 2 on Oct 21st.

I'm just happy for the whole experiment that scientific progress isn't being held back by fear mongering or the uninformed, superstitious fear of people who don't have the first clue of any of the principles involved.

All scientific breakthroughs will have some potential for catastrophe, like Trinity possibly igniting the atmosphere. But those small risks are necessary for the progress.

Essentially, Sarah Palin and the other fundamentalist twats trying to turn the whole world into some kind of Christian theocracy can go suck it. :D At least stem cell research in the United States won't be forbidden for much longer.

[Shadow_King_X]

Let me guess, next we'll be talking about Nibiru, or Planet X, and how it will either cause devastating natural occurances that will end humanity from when it passes by.

Or how about when earth comes, and passes, the gravitational plane?

2012, will this be the end?

I say, who cares?

[Lt Swiggles]

correct me if im wrong but we dont even know what happens in a black hole so why are you guys saying it like were all just going to die or w.e for all we know we could be in a black hole right now and not even know it and everything that we learn is just a illusion caused by the black hole.

[Ender]

Sorry, that's ridiculous. We actually do know what happens in black holes. See, when enough matter is compacted into a small enough space, it warps spacetime enough that not even light can escape the gravitational pull*.

Black Hole is a misnomer. It's actually a black ball. It is not at all a hole. We just can't see it since light can't escape.

*Gravity is simply the name we give to the warping of spacetime.

[Vhako]

Let me guess, next we'll be talking about Nibiru, or Planet X, and how it will either cause devastating naturual occurances that will end humanity from when it passes by.

Or how about when earth comes, and passes, the gravitational plane?

2012, will this be the end?

I say, who cares?

Wow, we try to have a real-world discussion about current events and this jackass comes at us with his google'd science fiction...

Check the spelling on 'NATURAL' whilst you're at it too...


Back on subject anyway; Ender is correct, they are not 'holes' more like large masses of impossibly dense dark matter that have an intense gravitational field causing everything, including light to be pulled towards it in a spiral fashion. Scientists believe that 22% of our known universe is comprised of dark matter too.

[Shadow_King_X]

Vhako, you're just an idiot. Trying to put mispellings in my quotes to make yourself look cool. That's a new low, even for you.

One of them actually isn't science fiction, maybe if you spent some more time reading you'd already have known that.

[Ender]

I agree that pointing out a typo like it reflects something on the person who did it is ridiculous. But attacking another person because of that is unacceptable. It's petty and uncalled for. Be respectful of eachother.

[Vhako]

Vhako, you're just an idiot. Trying to put mispellings in my quotes to make yourself look cool. That's a new low, even for you.

One of them actually isn't science fiction, maybe if you spent some more time reading you'd already have known that.

Actually, you're a complete loser. I know for a fact you spelt it wrong and you've just edited the post. And I commented on it as a retort to the fact that this grade A toss-pot does nothing but comment on spelling and grammar when his is clearly sub-par too.

Anywho, someone trying to be 'cool' whilst clearly smashing his mix (Fap, Fap, Fap) all over Sonic the frikkin' Hedgehog clearly needs to get a life. You're on my ignore now anyway, as for someone with so many posts, you've posted absolutely nothing of substance and i'm betting you never will either.

[Shadow_King_X]

Who cares bro, you say others have no life yet you're the who I gauruntee you live with your parents.

You're a disgrace, and you simply make yourself look like a fool You can't even stay on topic right.

Pathetic.

Maybe next time instead of always trying to post in response to my posts, you'll have something intelligent to say. Sadly, you're just some kid who probably has been beat many times over.

-Shadow

[Vhako]

Sadly, as your comments and opinions mean absolutely nothing to me I am unable to read your (I'm 100% sure it is) dribble.


This message is hidden because Shadow_King_X is on your ignore list.

You'll have to speak louder, it appears you're mumbling...

[Shadow_King_X]

I like how he posts in response to me when I'm ignored.

You fail again. =)

[Ender]

Take this little dispute out of the public eye and into the private message system.

[Bloodwrath970]

id love it if these two morons would STFU. but anyways. i didnt come here to "yell" (well type in caps lock angrily and hope that my point is gotten) at these two. i came to post this: http://www.cracked.com/article_16583_5-scientific-experiments-most-likely-end-world.html it is interesting. the LHC is mentioned 3 times out of five. its funny, yet informative. btw, the artical is NOT all about atom smashing. so be expecting some other stuff. but its pretty funny anyways.

[sfubear]

Blah blah Blah this thread has gone down hill so much from the beginning, I'm all about it, fire the thing up make little black holes or discover the secrets of the universe either works for me. If it kills everyone, then no one will care now will they, and if they discover all this crazy stuff and can use it to make the world a better place then booyakasha

I say clone a million babies and use all the aborted baby stem cells too

[Ghostbear_100]

I say clone a million babies and use all the aborted baby stem cells too

WAAAAAAAYYY off topic, but okay...

In order to try and create an new debate, let us start on about the possibilies of stem cell research, its benefits and potential problems (non-ethical problems).

I will begin by just saying I am for it, more so if stem cells can be retrieved without the need for a fetus.

A lot of good could come out of stem cell research.

[MADDGOAT]

Well, Ragnarok is delayed for at least two months. :) They're having some unexpected difficulties...

[Sergeant Gutsy]

Are we dead yet?
No.

Are we dead yet?
No.

Are we dead yet?
No!

Are we de-
You will be if you don't shut up about the LCH!

...
..

Are we dead yet? :p

[Tarnag]

Everyone anticipating the end of the world, you do realize they would only be running things in one direction until next year, right? That means nothing would even happen until then...

Even then a black hole being created by this is so unlikely, you are more likely to get struck by lightning while being eaten by an albino shark, or creating a black hole by clapping...

[Sergeant Gutsy]

or creating a black hole by clapping...

BRB, testing this theory. Sorry if it ends the world in the meantime.

[Tarnag]

You'll just have to clap about a billion times every day, and you should have it by the time you die... or not...

[Sergeant Gutsy]

You'll just have to clap about a billion times every day, and you should have it by the time you die... or not...

Don't rush me, I'm working on it!

[Tarnag]

Well hurry up! In the name of SCIENCE!

[Sergeant Gutsy]

Rejecting your reality, and substituting my own.

http://www.cal-entertainment.com/images/myth-busters-tv-26_pic.jpg

[Tarnag]

I was thinking the same thing!

http://ui29.gamespot.com/156/mythwalrus_2.jpg

[EightBall]

ah, i loved making all the kids paranoid at school, half the school took the day off so they didnt die in class, lol
but seriously, this thing will never make a black hole (didnt it break anyway?), it cant hrness the power to create mass, it might split a hadron or two but the most that will happen is that the whole thing will blow up, killing most of the scientists/ engineers/ newsreaders there, the least is a small release of energy on collision

[MADDGOAT]

Even then a black hole being created by this is so unlikely, you are more likely to get struck by lightning while being eaten by an albino shark, or creating a black hole by clapping...

That happened once! The stuck by lightning while being eaten by an albino shark thing... not the creating a black hole by clapping thing... I don't know how to clap... It makes me kind of sad, really. While all of the other kids were singing "If you're happy and you know it clap you hands!", I was crying over in the corner... :(

[Koblin]

That happened once! The stuck by lightning while being eaten by an albino shark thing... not the creating a black hole by clapping thing... I don't know how to clap... It makes me kind of sad, really. While all of the other kids were singing "If you're happy and you know it clap you hands!", I was crying over in the corner... :(

lmao...that's a sad story! I've never created a black hole by clapping, but I create them by hitting things with my sword :D

[Thikr]

Everyone anticipating the end of the world, you do realize they would only be running things in one direction until next year, right? That means nothing would even happen until then...

Even then a black hole being created by this is so unlikely, you are more likely to get struck by lightning while being eaten by an albino shark, or creating a black hole by clapping...

Eh... the LHC is powered by thousands of magnets and if even ONE fails, the particle, estimated to be a few TRillion degrees, will pass through it possibly for miles pushing matter in its way into a super dense microscopic black-hole, which will likely dissipate in nanoseconds anyhoo.

The reason a black-hole doesn't disappear in space is because it has enough mass to hold itself together. Something microscopic just won't have the same kind of power...


ah, i loved making all the kids paranoid at school, half the school took the day off so they didnt die in class, lol
but seriously, this thing will never make a black hole (didnt it break anyway?), it cant hrness the power to create mass, it might split a hadron or two but the most that will happen is that the whole thing will blow up, killing most of the scientists/ engineers/ newsreaders there, the least is a small release of energy on collision

Read above please for everything in bold...

For the underlined stuff, yes it did break and it should be non-functional for I believe 25 years... :(:(:(

And lastly for the everything else, stop smoking dope :p, the whole point of the project is to:

Study the "God Particle" (Higgs Boson),
Study Dark-Matter,
Study Alternate Dimensions/Realities (IT'S TRUE I SWEAR!),
and last by not least,

KNOCK THE LAWS OF PHYSICS ON THEIR METAPHORICAL @$$ES!, this including the whole "Reenact the Big-Bang" thing.

Part of which being the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and which ever law of physics states "Matter cannot be created or destroyed" (same as the thermodynamics law, only Matter instead of Energy).

The original idea was that the machine would create a ball of super-hot super-dense gas from two near light-speed protons but who knows (for at least 25 years)...

[iron]

So, is there any new news on the accelerator?

[Beyond Birthday]

Reply: Last thing i heard about it, it was months away from firing, and that was in....october?

[samski]

It fired, but never collided. That has been delayed until Spring next year.

samski

[spider from mars]

there was a post on Peter Woit's blog (http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=1109) suggesting that there may not be collisions until next summer


The tentative schedule now inaccessible to the public showed that it is repairs to sector 34 that will determine when they can get going again. The process of getting damaged magnets out of the tunnel, making repairs, getting replacements installed, then testing everything, is what may delay everything into next summer.

and from the comments:

As for the LHC schedule: the repairs of sector 34 are indeed complicated. Many magnets need replacement, but quite a few more need to be checked. Moving stuff around in the LHC tunnel looks pretty much like that game invented by Sam Loyd (the unrivalled chess problem composer), “15″.

I heard unofficially stated that we will most likely get beams in September 2009. That really sucks, but on the other hand we are not watching idly.

it does really suck :(

[The Oblivion]

yes it really does

[spider from mars]

a few more details (this time from physicsworld.com):


It began soon after 11 a.m. CET (10 a.m. BST) when the operations team was commissioning the final eighth of the LHC, sector 3–4, to an energy of 5.5 TeV. To do this, the team had to ramp up the current in the circuits of the “dipole” magnets, which steer the machine’s proton beams. Unfortunately — and for reasons yet unknown — the higher current was met by resistance in an electrical link between a dipole magnet and a neighbouring “quadrupole”, or focusing, magnet.

This resistance put an unwanted load on the power supply. In response, the power supply switched off and triggered a batch of resistors in the circuit to curb the high current. It also triggered quenches in many nearby magnets — an automatic safety system that is in place to distribute excess energy over a wide area.

Meanwhile, an electrical arc sprung from the fault and punctured a hole in the magnets’ cooling enclosure, allowing liquid helium to escape into the outer, thermally insulating vacuum of the cryostat. Relief valves in the cryostat opened to let out the helium into the tunnel — initially about two tonnes, though over time another four tonnes. However, the pressure of the helium was so great that several cryostats shifted and broke their anchors in the concrete floor. It was this movement that was responsible for the damaged the cryogenic jumper connections, which exist every 107 m along the sector.

six tonnes of liquid helium suddenly meeting the room temperature tunnel would boil so quickly and give off so much gas it would be almost like a bomb going off. uncontrolled superconducting magnet quenches can be very dangerous for this reason, and where they're usually installed they have safety systems to vent the pressure to the outside air. it's a little trickier when you're stuck down a tunnel :/

full copy of the accident report here: https://edms.cern.ch/file/973073/1/Report_on_080919_incident_at_LHC__2_.pdf

[Gas4ayear]

Well, that sucks for science that this thing is broken, but at least now the history channel has some more to work with on the LHC, (perhaps a show on fixing the humonguos magnets?) :P

[Beyond Birthday]

Warning this picture has the "F" word in it:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/captain%20falcon/rCain/Falcon_Collider.png?o=1

[PLOWKILL]

So did they ever fire that bad boy up or what??? Im to lazy to look back at the past threads......

[iron]

As far as I know they delayed it.

[DeatH FollowS]

i think they started it and it broke lol