Who owns the Sanity system?

[theALLseeingEYE]

Hey everyone,

basically, I started this, because I want to find out whether SK has the ability to use the Sanity Meter, without Nintendo's approval in future games.

Here are a few links to interesting things.

1. The patent for the Sanity System itself can be seen at the link below

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,935,954.PN.&OS=PN/6,935,954&RS=PN/6,935,954

In the patent, Nintendo is listed as the Assignee, but both Denis Dyack, and Henry Sterchi of SK are listed as two out of three of the inventors. Does this mean the inventors, and the Assignee have the rights to use the patented invention?

2. The wikipedia page for 'Patent' sheds a bit of light, if leaving things still a bit hazy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent#Ownership


In most countries, both natural persons and corporate entities may apply for a patent. In the United States, however, only the inventor(s) may apply for a patent although it may be assigned to a corporate entity subsequently[11] and inventors may be required to assign inventions to their employers under the contract of employment. In most European countries, ownership of an invention may pass from the inventor to their employer by rule of law if the invention was made in the course of the inventor's normal employment duties.[12]

3. Also, here's the Wikipedia page for 'Inventor (patent)'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventor_(patent)


Anyways, it sounds like the Assignee of the patent (in this case Nintendo) may be the sole owner of the patent. Which seems kind of not right. Seems kind of odd that the inventors themselves wouldn't be able to use the patent , considering they are the inventors and all.

Anyways, what do you guys think?

[Wiiggin]

It's hard to say, and considering the intricacies of the laws involved, I'm not confident enough to make even a guess. Regardless, I find the whole thing intensely interesting.

[theALLseeingEYE]

I agree, this is a bit unclear. It sounds like, considering Nintendo is listed as Assignee, and from what is stated in the quote I posted from Wikipedia above, that Denis, and Henry (the latter of which was working at Nintendo at the time), may have been contractually obligated to assign the patent to Nintendo.

Denis has stated in the past, from what I recall, that they consider Nintendo their 'silent partner'. So all may not be lost, but if SK is indeed working on a darker game at the moment, and it proves to be for PS3/ 360 like has been rumored, then it would be nice if they could use their own invention, if so desired.

[RAziel1979]

I believe that what we will see is a new and improved system that takes the form of the sanity system but represented in a different way.
I don't think there will be a sanity bar, but something more realistic like watching your characters actions and behaviors when he is close to danger.

I'm hoping they show something next month, the wait is killing me!:)

[Guirec730]

I think that owning something like that is a little silly...imagine if Bungie owned the rights to Halo-style regenerating health? Instead of paying for the rights to use it, Activision would have made the Call of Duty teams use health packs in their games.

Health packs! The humanity!

Point is, if it wasn't patented, there would probably be more games doing it, and doing different things with it.

[theALLseeingEYE]

I think that owning something like that is a little silly...imagine if Bungie owned the rights to Halo-style regenerating health? Instead of paying for the rights to use it, Activision would have made the Call of Duty teams use health packs in their games.

Health packs! The humanity!

Point is, if it wasn't patented, there would probably be more games doing it, and doing different things with it.

I totally agree man.

I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, since it takes a brilliant feature, a feature that I would love to see integrated in more games, in more various, and innovative ways, and possibly castrates it before the competition has the chance to begin a one-up contest.

Even worse, if this is Nintendo exclusive, it makes the situation even more dire, since there's a chance all they'll do is squat on it, and never utilize it.


To Raziel, you have a point man. Its an oversight on my part to forget that SK will probably just continue to innovate, and think of more cool ideas. Perhaps evolutions on this formula even, that could possibly side-step the patent. SK did mention that their next game will be different from what they have done in the past.

[The Skoomaeater]

Make property history.

I'm not sure of the particulars covering intellectual material, but wouldn't this idea be in the realms of copyright, not patent? Can anyone explain this?

[RAziel1979]

As much as I like the Sanity System, I would like SK to impress me with something new.
Any day now right?:)

[The Skoomaeater]

Any day now right?:)
At least no news is no bad news.

[RAziel1979]

And no news is driving me crazy!:(

[theALLseeingEYE]

Make property history.

I'm not sure of the particulars covering intellectual material, but wouldn't this idea be in the realms of copyright, not patent? Can anyone explain this?

From what I understand, Patents are the way to go. Apparently Patents have a history of holding up to scrutiny of IP ownership in court.

[AKAtheMilkman]

what's the sanity system. well the names kinda selfexpanitory but what's it from

[batosai]

Eternal Darkness: Sanities Requiem for the Gamecube.

[Magnum]

As I understand it from the limited instruction I had in courses on this subject, Patents are strictly for ideas and innovations and inventions. Yes you can even patent an idea or concept. These require an application and approval process, which is why as Allseeing already stated they hold up in court much better than most IP. These patents have expiration dates that last for only so many years. This is one of the reasons you can get generic pharmaceuticals of name brand drugs shortly after they go over the counter.

Trademarks cover images and the like. Best example I could make that most would know is the font type used in the Halo game titles. These as far as I remember also have an application and approval process. They also hold up in court but I don't think they see much time there like the last type of IP.

Either Patents or Trademarks cover one of the shortest spans of time.

The trickiest and(if I remember correctly) one of the longest lasting IPs out there has to be Copyrights hands down. Reason: you don't have to apply for a copyright. You can, you just don't have to. With digital media these days it's very hard to enforce copyrights as it's so easy to alter a song, book, or other similar content just enough to make it "original" or different enough that you won't get you pants sued off you. The "poor man's copyright" is another way to make a somewhat legal copyright. Basically, you seal what ever you want to copyright in an envelop and mail it to yourself. The stamp from the post office provides some 'proof' to when an original work may have been created. I think you here more about more court battles over copyrights that most of the other IPs. You'd have to check on that though as I'm not entirely sure.

As far as this Sanity System goes. If Denis and Henry of SK were hired by, or employees of Nintendo and worked on or developed this system during that time, the technology itself belongs to Nintendo in the end. If they were contracted to make it, I'm not sure how that works.

I'm really just basing that off of what I know personally. If you come up with a new type of tech or process and whether you leave the company some time after or not, that tech still belongs to the company. This is usually covered somewhere in the paperwork you receive and usually are required to sign before you're hired at these certain types of companies. I signed one and I work for a glue manufacturer(?). I guess being a draftsman they think I'll make up some new age glue for them while I'm there :confused:. Doubt it tough. :rolleyes:

Most of that's off the top of my head. Could have a few things mixed around. I sort of doubt you'll get an exact answer from anyone at SK. Non-disclosure agreements and all, you know.

[The Skoomaeater]

TY for the explanation Magnum.

I hope the company you work for doesn't expect a draughtsman to invent a new glue, that is R&Ds job surely?

It seems to me that the real 'owner' of this system is not just who created it, but also what that person signed and when.

Perhaps someone from SK could clear this up...


Any day now right?:)

...oh right, of course, they hardly ever post here. Nevermind.

[Lykathea]

I totally agree man.

I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, since it takes a brilliant feature, a feature that I would love to see integrated in more games, in more various, and innovative ways, and possibly castrates it before the competition has the chance to begin a one-up contest.

It seems ridiculous that Nintendo can own such a feature since it essentially derives from Bertolt Brecht's work in theatre in the first place, specifically so-called 'alienation effects' or verfremdungseffekten that are intended to remind the audience that they are watching a play. And although Brecht's intention with these effects was always to evoke Marxian political enlightenment (quite unlike most of the effects in ED), the use of them in ED is markedly similar, albeit adapted to a horror context.

[theALLseeingEYE]

*snip*

Thanks for Sharing Magnum. I had hope, seeing as apparently the inventors are the ones who apparently have to file the patent, but you make a solid case that Nintendo are likely in a position to horde the Sanity Effects.

If I had to guess, this patent may have mostly been to stop Microsoft from marketing a Pseudo-sequel to Eternal Darkness for the X360, should Too Human have proved to be a blockbuster.


what's the sanity system. well the names kinda selfexpanitory but what's it from

As other have stated, essentially, in the game Eternal Darkness, as your character went through the game, every time they came across something terrifying such as an undead creature, or perhaps a mutilated body, they would begin to lose Sanity.

This was depicted by a meter, that would deplete or refill, similar to a health bar. Even more-so though, as your character went insane, the camera slowly would begin to tilt (apparently a common film camera trick, used to effectively convey similar instances), the sound would become more twisted, and your character would begin to hallucinate.

As this happened, the game would actually start to mess with you. For example, take the video below. Its much better if you just play the game, but you can get an idea here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9wSR6uInZ0




It seems ridiculous that Nintendo can own such a feature since it essentially derives from Bertolt Brecht's work in theatre in the first place, specifically so-called 'alienation effects' or verfremdungseffekten that are intended to remind the audience that they are watching a play. And although Brecht's intention with these effects was always to evoke Marxian political enlightenment (quite unlike most of the effects in ED), the use of them in ED is markedly similar, albeit adapted to a horror context.

Thats sounds interesting, I should check into that. But I agree, it is ridiculous in a sense to patent this. The most ridiculous part of course, would be if this even stopped the inventors themselves from doing more with it, should they have the inspiration to do so.

If its any consolation, at least Patents apparently have an expiration date.

[Lykathea]

Here is a link, AllSeeingEye: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfremdungseffekt

"The distancing effect (German: Verfremdungseffekt) is a theatrical and cinematic device coined by playwright Bertolt Brecht "which prevents the audience from losing itself passively and completely in the character created by the actor, and which consequently leads the audience to be a consciously critical observer.""

Eternal Darkness doesn't really make use of it for a political purpose, more as a gimmick for cheap thrills. Thus, Brecht and others would probably not like SK's treatment of it in their game, since it has been stripped of its political significance and in fact is made to draw the player more into the fiction at hand, than outside of it (usually, anyways).

[Magnum]

If its any consolation, at least Patents apparently have an expiration date.

Found this off the Patent Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_patent

Looks like the current patent won't run out until 2022.

[Guirec730]

"The distancing effect (German: Verfremdungseffekt) is a theatrical and cinematic device coined by playwright Bertolt Brecht "which prevents the audience from losing itself passively and completely in the character created by the actor, and which consequently leads the audience to be a consciously critical observer.""


I now understand why Kojima wanted SK remaking Metal Gear Solid.

The funny thing is, I see Kojima doing that all the time with dialogue referencing the player or the game experience, but then turning around and doing the exact opposite by doing things like interactive cutscenes.

MGS3 ending spoilers: Like when you have to "pull the trigger" to kill The Boss during her final scene.

Sorry if that is derailing or off topic, the thought just leaped out of my brain.

[theALLseeingEYE]

Here is a link, AllSeeingEye: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfremdungseffekt

"The distancing effect (German: Verfremdungseffekt) is a theatrical and cinematic device coined by playwright Bertolt Brecht "which prevents the audience from losing itself passively and completely in the character created by the actor, and which consequently leads the audience to be a consciously critical observer.""

Eternal Darkness doesn't really make use of it for a political purpose, more as a gimmick for cheap thrills. Thus, Brecht and others would probably not like SK's treatment of it in their game, since it has been stripped of its political significance and in fact is made to draw the player more into the fiction at hand, than outside of it (usually, anyways).

Sorry for the late reply Lykathea. That night my roommate distracted me half-way through reading, then I've been essentially away from a computer ever since.

Still not finished reading, but the distancing effect does sound very interesting. Being someone who generally tends to lean towards believing full immersion within ones art could be the best way to present ideas, he seems to have a very interesting take on the roles an audience should play when viewing his plays. Definitely an eye opener into a different way of thinking.

I'll try to finish the page and comment further later though.

[theALLseeingEYE]

Found this off the Patent Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_patent

Looks like the current patent won't run out until 2022.

Doh! I suppose a decently lengthy ownership of a patent should be expected.

[The Skoomaeater]

The departure of Henry Sterchi may have some affect on the 'ownership' of the sanity system.