Vick. Forgive or Punish?

[Nicholbert]

So Michael Vick was released from Leavenworth this morning. He undoubtedly has a very long road ahead of him in recovering what he can from his life, and starting fresh. So what is everyone's opinon on this issue? Does he deserve the American way of forgiveness? Or, do his crimes against dogs warrant for him to recluse into society for his remaining days? I know this was a very heated topic, and I was glad to see it diminish. Now that he is out, I personally feel he has served his time, not mention the next 3 weeks of a not so strict form of house arrest, and then 3 years of very strict probation following that. So...vote in the poll, and list your thoughts if you like.

[AKAtheDopeman]

I would like to see him play in the NFL again.

[exkon]

I say we should forgive, not because he's a "celebrity", but he has served his time according to the law (which is debateable)

My view, what's the point of releasing someone from prison if no one in society is ever really going to forgive/forget that person? Sure this something that people probably won't forget or hold this against for the rest of his life, but isn't that really punishment enough?

[SuperJay]

I'm familiar with the situation but I don't really understand the poll or the choices. A second shot 'in society?' What does that mean? He's just a guy who's gonna live his life. He committed some crimes and he got punished; he was a pro athlete so it generated a lot of media attention. There may be more to the story than I'm aware of, but I don't see him getting exiled or becoming a recluse or anything. Why would / should he? He may lead a no longer lead a public, celebrity life but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Most of us lead fairly private, normal lives; he'll probably do the same. I wouldn't be surprised if he prefers to do so and tries to avoid the spotlight.

If you're talking specifically about him playing pro football in the NFL, that's a whole different story. But the whole recluse / exile thing doesn't really add up, to me.

[Nicholbert]

I'm familiar with the situation but I don't really understand the poll or the choices. A second shot 'in society?' What does that mean? He's just a guy who's gonna live his life. He committed some crimes and he got punished; he was a pro athlete so it generated a lot of media attention. There may be more to the story than I'm aware of, but I don't see him getting exiled or becoming a recluse or anything. Why would / should he? He may lead a no longer lead a public, celebrity life but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Most of us lead fairly private, normal lives; he'll probably do the same. I wouldn't be surprised if he prefers to do so and tries to avoid the spotlight.

If you're talking specifically about him playing pro football in the NFL, that's a whole different story. But the whole recluse / exile thing doesn't really add up, to me.

I can see what you are saying Jay. Will he be exiled? No. Not literally at least. However, will society, i.e. PETA leave him alone now that he has served his time and punishment? If he does re-enter the NFL, how will people treat him? So when proposing the question, I had meant to imply society as the metaphor, not as the literal entity. While I may have voted to see him left alone and allowed to live his life the way he sees fit, I am curious to see how he has changed as a person. Funding the dog fighting is absolutely disgusting, and profiting from an antiquated form of entertainment from the dark ages is unexcusable. I don't care who you are. When I had first heard about it, I couldn't even look at the images of the dogs and place where the ring took place. However, this man served his full sentence, finally admitted his mistake (not like Roger Clemens), and hopefully learned many lessons from this harsh life experience. I am hoping to see him come out of this educated and ready to make better choices in life. It would be nice to see more celebs and sports icons use their status for positive, long-term purposes, and maybe Vick could do that now shoudl he be given the opportunity to re-enter the NFL. Who knows.

[Shaynard]

Can I vote yes he deserves a second chance because it's the HUMAN way?.. lol

If OJ can still be on TV them Vick should be just fine... I wouldn't be surprized to see his life be plenty enjoyable assuming he's learned his lesson and forgiven himself...

[PLOWKILL]

They have a tally going on CNN.com and im actually surprised by it.

48% yes
52% no

out of 243,503 votes

The guy got caught having dog fights... Its not like he was out running guns or mugging people.

Who cares?? I just want to watch him play football.

[AKAtheDopeman]

The guy got caught having dog fights... Its not like he was out running guns or mugging people.

Who cares?? I just want to watch him play football.

Amen.

10/char

[laxfish76]

I personally think he will be back, and hope he is too. He has probably learned from it, and it really does not have anything to do with the sport anyways.

This leads to my little rant; I personally don't care if someone is doing something illegal on the side not affecting the game, but if someone does affect the game (ie: steroids, gambling on games), they should be kicked out of the sport forever. I am so sick of seeing people do steroids, only to be given small suspensions and come back. They intentionally ruined the game; that is an unforgiveable offense towards the sport and it's fans. If you are not good enough without steroids, don't play the sport at that level, or even better, just deal with not being the best.

I also believe leagues should really clamp down on steroid tests...

As for gambling, that is equally as bad. Changing your performance level for money while fans are paying to see you is ridiculous.

I expect Vick back, though. I hope he has learned from this, and can continue on his legacy.

//Lax

[PLOWKILL]

I dont think hell be what he once was if let back.

Theres only so much you can do in prison and I think well see some after effects in his mobility and physical abilities.

[laxfish76]

after effects in his mobility

:o

Oh God...

//Lax

[exkon]

Surprised by the CNN poll, I guess dog fights must touch a nerve somewhere.

Which reminds me that a friend and I were having a discussion once, he was saying that he could easily watch a movie where people get blown up, sliced up, etc. But could not watch a movie where a dog dies.

I'm hoping Vick plays for the NFL again, but I doubt it will be sometime if ever that he will get any endorsement deals. Whatever team does pick him up should get him at a great price.

[Eleazar]

Ron Mexico does deserve a second chance, just look at what some of the other NFL players have done. They are many times worse than what he did, and they got second chances.


P.S. If you don't know who Ron Mexico is, a video game(I don't remember which one) didn't have the right to use his name so instead they called Vick, Ron Mexico.

[PLOWKILL]

Ron Mexico does deserve a second chance, just look at what some of the other NFL players have done. They are many times worse than what he did, and they got second chances.


P.S. If you don't know who Ron Mexico is, a video game(I don't remember which one) didn't have the right to use his name so instead they called Vick, Ron Mexico.

Thats like an awesome porn name!!

From now on when I go to the bar I shall be known as..........

RON MEXICO
RON MEXICO
RON MEXICO
RON MEXICO
RON MEXICO

[Wiiggin]

Wait... the American way is forgiveness?

[DenyThisFlesh]

He deserves a second chance. I hate what he did, but people make mistakes. Now, if he does anything like that again, then he's out for good.

[Nicholbert]

Wait... the American way is forgiveness?


Can I vote yes he deserves a second chance because it's the HUMAN way?.. lol

If OJ can still be on TV them Vick should be just fine... I wouldn't be surprized to see his life be plenty enjoyable assuming he's learned his lesson and forgiven himself...

I LOVE the OJ reference. That guy makes me laugh. Although we won't be seeing him running free anytime soon, if ever again. He may not make it 15 years in prison. I don't even think he had a chance at parole. Anyways, back on topic...

I wish it were the Human way gents, but sadly it isn't. Go to a country led by dictators or emperors and tell me it is the Human way to forgive for crimes such as Vick's. I wish it was the Human way. I think it is an innate trait humans have usually, having the ability to be empathetic to someone's situation. I used American simply becuase it is where he is located, and we are a country which was built on freedom and forgiveness amongst other things. The CNN poll has surprised me as well, and actually contradicts my theory of the American way. Have we all become so jaded? The murdering mother of a toddler in Florida has somehow avoided being convicted for so long, and yet people do not want to forgive Vick for being apart of something which is sadly apart of the culture he grew up in.

[SuperJay]

I wish it were the Human way gents, but sadly it isn't. Go to a country led by dictators or emperors and tell me it is the Human way to forgive for crimes such as Vick's. I wish it was the Human way. I think it is an innate trait humans have usually, having the ability to be empathetic to someone's situation.

I think Shane's point was that American's don't have a trademark on the virtue of forgiveness. It's not an American 'way,' it's a human virtue that does actually exist in other countries. Even people who have the bad fortune to be led by dictators are still able to be forgiving.

I know that's not the point of your thread, but I think you'd be better off by just asking if people feel forgiving toward Michael Vick or not, and leaving the remarks about 'the American way' to one side. I'm American myself, and that phrase always makes me uncomfortable.

[Shaynard]

Agreed not all countries show the same level of forgiveness, but it is also unfair to say it's an American way as well... I said human not because all human's do either, but because forgiveness is human not just American.. However it was meant as a joke truthfully I knew what you intended Nicholbert. :)

[Nicholbert]

I think Shane's point was that American's don't have a trademark on the virtue of forgiveness. It's not an American 'way,' it's a human virtue that does actually exist in other countries. Even people who have the bad fortune to be led by dictators are still able to be forgiving.

I know that's not the point of your thread, but I think you'd be better off by just asking if people feel forgiving toward Michael Vick or not, and leaving the remarks about 'the American way' to one side. I'm American myself, and that phrase always makes me uncomfortable.

I had explained in my previous post why I chose "American way"...had it been in Canada, I would have said the Canadian way. I very much see your POV, however, I have no problems with using that phrase. As an American, I use the term as a mention of my patriorism. Where America has its dark sides, it very much has its great points too. Like your generosity in providing proof-reading services to people seeking out potential work. That I would call an American Way of people helping people. It is nothing against any other country. It really isn't anything to read into. It may just be editorializing on my part. Either way, it is what it is :p

[Nicholbert]

Agreed not all countries show the same level of forgiveness, but it is also unfair to say it's an American way as well... I said human not because all human's do either, but because forgiveness is human not just American.. However it was meant as a joke truthfully I knew what you intended Nicholbert. :)

I know you knew what I meant Shane :) And I am not upset about Jay's comments about it, or anyone else's. I have no problem explaining where I was coming from (as I just did above) if people want to know. I certainly meant no offense, and don't want it to come off as I am some American supremist by any means. Which it must not, because you saw my implication when you read it. It's all good man, even though you're Canadian, I still like you :p (webcazm obviously :D)

[prodigy1998]

when it all boils down to it, if the person is a avid dog lover/animal rights person they will pry never forgive him, but if the person is a avid football fan, or someone who just doesn't care they will forgive him...
me personally, i'm not a huge football fan, not a avid dog person, i just hope he doesn't receive all the forgiveness he should just b/c throughout his whole trial and all he still acted as if he didn't think he did anything wrong and he didn't care, which in fact means that he's not sorry no matter how much he says it, so it wouldn't have mattered what he did, he hasn't acted at all like he gives a crap about breaking the law(regardless of the law), so he should be treated just like any other criminal who has committed any other crime and only forgiven by those who actually give a crap about him...

[SuperJay]

I very much see your POV, however, I have no problems with using that phrase. As an American, I use the term as a mention of my patriorism. Where America has its dark sides, it very much has its great points too. Like your generosity in providing proof-reading services to people seeking out potential work. That I would call an American Way of people helping people. It is nothing against any other country. It really isn't anything to read into. It may just be editorializing on my part. Either way, it is what it is :p

Interesting... see, personally, "the American Way" is uncomfortable to me because it's frequently used in a xenophobic or nationalistic context. It's not about patriotism or lack thereof, for me. Plus, I always find myself asking 'what does that even mean?' E.g. "fighting for truth, justice, and the American Way" means what, exactly? It's just a catch-all that appeals to the 'America is better' mindset.

RE: me proofing resumes and whatnot... again, that's nothing to do with America or me being American. If it's generous then that's just a sign of humanity, not nationality. I know you're saying it's nothing to read into (which begs the question of 'then why write it?') and I'm not trying to attack you or put you on the defensive, at all - I guess I just don't see the need to assign virtues to specific countries or cultures.

PS: Sorry for derailing :(

[Nicholbert]

Interesting... see, personally, "the American Way" is uncomfortable to me because it's frequently used in a xenophobic or nationalistic context. It's not about patriotism or lack thereof, for me. Plus, I always find myself asking 'what does that even mean?' E.g. "fighting for truth, justice, and the American Way" means what, exactly? It's just a catch-all that appeals to the 'America is better' mindset.

RE: me proofing resumes and whatnot... again, that's nothing to do with America or me being American. If it's generous then that's just a sign of humanity, not nationality. I know you're saying it's nothing to read into (which begs the question of 'then why write it?') and I'm not trying to attack you or put you on the defensive, at all - I guess I just don't see the need to assign virtues to specific countries or cultures.

PS: Sorry for derailing :(

No need to apologize for derailing in my opinion. "It's my thread and I'll derail if I want to"...LOL.

Yeah, our difference in opinion is quite interesting, and nearly polar opposite of each other. But this is what is great. I, again, can totally see your side of the argument. You're an educated guy and there is some solid foundation to your points. And I choose 'points' specifically because I don't feel like you're trying to change my mind, opinion, or even how I think. This goes back to the grammar post a few months back. I think you and I can agree to disagree, and move on to the next post :D

back on track here...

I was at home for lunch and caught some ESPNews for a minute. That minute just so happened to be Vick rolling up to his huge mansion in Atlanta, which I thought the government seized, with his entourage. I didn't catch him exiting the car, but I really wanted to see what the reaction would have been and to see how he kept himself in prison. I am sure he did nothing but 'train' while he was locked up.

[Sw0ll_MC25]

I believe in second chances, I do not believe in third chances (PacMan Jones?)

[TonyOrtiz15]

I thought he was called Ron Mexico because of that lawsuit against him and he used that name as an alias. Some girl accused him of giving her herpes.

My friends and myself all refer to him as Ron Mexico and have been doing so since that happened. It's hard not to laugh when talking about him, just because of the name.


The guy broke the law. He served his time. He still has a bunch of probation to live through. If he screws up again, they will put him away for a long time. There are plenty of pro atheletes still playing that have been convicted of worse. You can't persecute him because he was one of the most famous of the atheletes who have been in trouble.

Plax has a loaded, unregistered gun with him in a regular old club, and the idiot doesn't have the safety on. He poses a greater threat to society than Michael Vick, IMO.

[ThEoRy]

Fu(k him. He's a dog killer, period. He personally body slammed dogs on the concrete breaking their necks. In addition to assisting in other cruel methods of killing the poor animals.

Anyone who can do such evil and horrible acts of violence upon a dog certainly has something terribly wrong with them.

You do know what they say about children who torture and kill animals right?

http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=132

http://www.sniksnak.com/ac/abuse.html