Misotheism

[KefkaForKing]

So recently been reading around religion, and came across this term:

Misotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism); hatred of God/the Gods.

Of particular interest in the wikipedia article is the quote near the start:


In some varieties of polytheism, it was considered possible to inflict punishment on gods by ceasing to worship them. Thus, Hrafnkell, protagonist of the eponymous Icelandic saga set in the 10th century, as his temple to Freyr is burnt and he is enslaved states that I think it is folly to have faith in gods, never performing another sacrifice, a position described in the sagas as goðlauss "godless". Jacob Grimm in his Teutonic Mythology observes that:

"It is remarkable that Old Norse legend occasionally mentions certain men who, turning away in utter disgust and doubt from the heathen faith, placed their reliance on their own strength and virtue. Thus in the Sôlar lioð 17 we read of Vêbogi and Râdey â sik þau trûðu, "in themselves they trusted".

Now I was aware of this theme, more subconsciously, in the TH story, but only now did I really see things from the human perspective and it seems to me to be the major thread of the human story so far (spoilers):


Intro cinematic, disgruntled bar patrons complain the Aesir don't protect them like they used to.
The "Brothers of Loki" defy Aesir law and the will of the majority of the Aesir, committing treason and murder to set Loki free.
The Wolftroopers range in their misotheism, generally being quite ambivalent towards Baldur, at one time being quite overt... "For Lord Baldur!" - "Can it."
Frey speculates that the Aesir will be turned on/abandoned by the humans, which, as wikipedia says, is basically the biggest punishment that can be rendered to a God by its subjects.


So I put forward two questions:
Do you agree that misotheism is an important part of the human story?
If so, how far do you think this will be taken in the next two games?

As the Grimm quote suggests, to abandon one's God is to trust in one's own strength and virtues, and TBH I can't see the citizens of Midgard lasting 5 minutes without the Aesir, which is what Heimdall basically says, it would be cutting of their nose to spite their face. But I can't see SK leaving the human angle out of this altogether, equally I can't see where they can go from here! Perhaps the myths can help??

[JH1975]

Probobaly likely that it is and will probobaly get more prevelent as the story goes on.

[KefkaForKing]

Probobaly likely that it is and will probobaly get more prevelent as the story goes on.

OK, so how far do you think the humans will go?
Total revolt against the Aesir?
Abandon them?
Disobey them?

It strikes me that a lot of (good) discussion has revolved around the gods, and the Norse myths certainly concentrate on the gods (in contrast to, say, Abrahamic myths or Greek myths which seem to strike a better balance of human/god interaction), so the humans are conspicuous by their absence. The game is called Too Human after all, where do you see the humans going??

[Guirec730]

I think it would be interesting if they just abandon the Aesir gods to the wars and try to make a life outside the wall. Maybe live in caves or something once all the anti-matter charges start falling.

That way, they can emerge from their dwellings as "cave men" and form the basis for modern man.

[JH1975]

Um yeah except that wouldnt make a very interesting story or game at all just watching humans huddled in caves as antimatter warheads destroy the planet. Silicon Knights will probobaly stick to the story that the actual Norse Mythology tells. But something interesting that i think they should put in is a mechanic that lets you decide where the story goes based on decescions you make throughout the game like in fable 2 or Infamous.

[Guirec730]

How so? The fate of the humans could very well be an epilogue to the final game, and what I suggested puts them more in the forefront of the goings-on than even Too Human 1 did.

I was also hoping that at least the human/cyber decision would alter some element of the story, if nothing else...

[TheBlueDemon73]

A couple ideas I've thought up.. Keep in mind I'm just speculating, so feel free to tear my ideas apart as you see fit..

One: The main difference separating the Aesir from the rest of humanity is the fact they manipulated their own bodies using advanced technology, technology which may be able to be recreated. It seems apparent from the general way of life of the Aesir that this process was vastly time and resource consuming. If, with their extensive modifications, the Aesir are unable or unwilling to act for the benefit of humanity, it is possible that the humans can basically stop supporting them by withholding the funding/labor required to keep the giant aesir operations going. This could result in a vast and tragic civil war between the Aesir, who may even go so far as to employ forced labor, torture, or slavery in order to remain in power and able to "defend" their unwilling subjects...

Two: It seems pretty clear following the story of the game that the undead army that results from Ragnarok is more deadly than even the Redeyes.. Also, you have a rogue Aesir that can apparently either interact peacefully with the machine race, or can control them outright.. The Aesir stand now caught between two opposing forces; the machines they were barely able to hold their own against (Frey's words), and a seemingly unstoppable army of undead that won't stay dead.. The Aesir are on the brink of collapse, and know it.. I think Frey's discussion with Heimdall is going to foreshadow a lot of the sequel's story... The events throughout the game hint that the Aesir are not all-powerful. They are mortal, and may not be the answer humanity needs. So it seems humanity may look elsewhere. Where? Loki! Loki has been freed from his confinement, which was originally due to his attempted alliance with the machines. The same machines who are kicking the crap out of the Aesir... He is freed by humans. HE has the ability to either deal peacefully with or directly control the machines. The humans are looking for a answer to their imminent extinction. What if they decide that answer is a machine army to combat the undead, with LOKI at its head! Suddenly, the Aesir become the unneeded outcasts. The ones who lived in palaces in comfort for far too long, at the expense of their subjects, and were not doing enough in return...

[KefkaForKing]

How so? The fate of the humans could very well be an epilogue to the final game, and what I suggested puts them more in the forefront of the goings-on than even Too Human 1 did.

I like the idea of the humans looking out of a cave at the end, thinking, "What in Helheim went wrong?" :D


I was also hoping that at least the human/cyber decision would alter some element of the story, if nothing else...

Me too, not sure it would be a big change, since you make the decision very early with no idea of the impact it could have... I guess the alterations will be more gameplay related (I'm hoping the cybernetic Baldur will become more and more machine like).


A couple ideas I've thought up.. Keep in mind I'm just speculating, so feel free to tear my ideas apart as you see fit..

One: The main difference separating the Aesir from the rest of humanity is the fact they manipulated their own bodies using advanced technology, technology which may be able to be recreated. It seems apparent from the general way of life of the Aesir that this process was vastly time and resource consuming. If, with their extensive modifications, the Aesir are unable or unwilling to act for the benefit of humanity, it is possible that the humans can basically stop supporting them by withholding the funding/labor required to keep the giant aesir operations going. This could result in a vast and tragic civil war between the Aesir, who may even go so far as to employ forced labor, torture, or slavery in order to remain in power and able to "defend" their unwilling subjects...

Good idea! Quite an extreme state of affairs, but is probably the best way to get the Aesir by the nuts. :o


Two: It seems pretty clear following the story of the game that the undead army that results from Ragnarok is more deadly than even the Redeyes.. Also, you have a rogue Aesir that can apparently either interact peacefully with the machine race, or can control them outright.. The Aesir stand now caught between two opposing forces; the machines they were barely able to hold their own against (Frey's words), and a seemingly unstoppable army of undead that won't stay dead.. The Aesir are on the brink of collapse, and know it.. I think Frey's discussion with Heimdall is going to foreshadow a lot of the sequel's story... The events throughout the game hint that the Aesir are not all-powerful. They are mortal, and may not be the answer humanity needs. So it seems humanity may look elsewhere. Where? Loki! Loki has been freed from his confinement, which was originally due to his attempted alliance with the machines. The same machines who are kicking the crap out of the Aesir... He is freed by humans. HE has the ability to either deal peacefully with or directly control the machines. The humans are looking for a answer to their imminent extinction. What if they decide that answer is a machine army to combat the undead, with LOKI at its head! Suddenly, the Aesir become the unneeded outcasts. The ones who lived in palaces in comfort for far too long, at the expense of their subjects, and were not doing enough in return...

Also a good point. When Loki shows Baldur the scene where he is given Giant technology, Odin says something like, "Loki, your sacrifice and contribution will be the greatest of all the Aesir", and this always seemed strange to me. I assume that Odin has, ultimately, the best interests of the humans at heart, and has seen a slim chance of saving them in Ragnarok, and Loki's Ymir tech and his "betrayal" are part of that plan (again, like Satan's betrayal is part of God's plan).

Loki also, when talking to Hel, implies that what he is fighting for is also the return of the world to its former state of beauty (or at least this is what he desires). Nominally then, Loki and the Aesir have the same goals... I guess like you say, the question is which side will the humans fall down on?

[JH1975]

I beg to differ on the point that the Aesir were not doing enough in return to the humans, most have over a thousand years of fighting the machines in endless cycles that more than any human could do they contribute their fair share most of the time even if they dont consider the humans as often as they should.

[TheBlueDemon73]

I beg to differ on the point that the Aesir were not doing enough in return to the humans, most have over a thousand years of fighting the machines in endless cycles that more than any human could do they contribute their fair share most of the time even if they dont consider the humans as often as they should.

I guess I should have been more clear, and said that in the eyes of the HUMANS, the aesir were not doing enough... Take for example the conversation between the bar patrons at the intro to the game, where the two guys are having the bitter discussion about how the Aesir aren't doing enough to protect them from the weird attacks that had been going on. Or Heimdall dismissing Baldur's request for an expedition to hunt GRENDL as an "unimportant mission"

[JH1975]

True i guess i was just saying that they probobaly do pull their own weight weather or not the humans think so but you make a good point